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Liberapay takes 0% https://liberapay.com/ https://liberapay.com/ It's European non-profit and open source. It's funded by the donation on it's own platform.

by jelv 8y ago

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
nspkr 8y ago
Very careful with this option, as it's based in the EU which means free speech is not considered; that makes it a very dangerous option for podcast and youtube creators, opinion bloggers, etc.
- DuckyC 8y ago
  Are you saying that there isn't free speech in the EU? What are you basing this statement on?
  - nspkr 8y ago
    Many countries in the EU have blasphemy laws and the European Court of Human Rights says they are okay: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/10/its-not-free-speech-criticize-muhammad-echr-ruled/574174/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/10/its-not-fr... If someone criticised Jesus Christ in their podcast (for example), they would be putting Liberapay at risk. I don't believe Liberapay would allow that, so they'd just ban the user. That's what makes Liberapay a risky option.
    - rjtavares 8y ago
      That's quite different from "free speech is not considered". Every country has free speech exceptions: for example, in the USA "there are several common-law exceptions, including obscenity,defamation,incitement to riot or imminent lawless action,fighting words,fraud, speech covered by copyright, and speech integral to criminal conduct" In th EU: > The Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union has been legally binding since December 1, 2009 when the Treaty of Lisbon became fully ratified and effective. Article 11 of the Charter, in part mirroring the language of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the European Convention on Human Rights, provides that > 1. Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. > 2. The freedom and pluralism of the media shall be respected. The European Court of Justice takes into account both the Charter and the Convention when making its rulings. According to the Treaty of Lisbon, the European Union accedes to the European Convention as an entity in its own right, making the Convention binding not only on the governments of the member states but also on the supranational institutions of the EU. So, is speech in USA "freer" than in the EU? Yes. But in both cases free speech is recognized as a right. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_by_country
      - gspetr 8y ago
        > So, is speech in USA "freer" than in the EU? Yes. But in both cases free speech is recognized as a right. True, but also trivial. Everyone pays lip service to free speech, even the most serious violators of it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_North_Korea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_North_Korea Article 67 states: "Citizens are guaranteed freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly, demonstration and association. The State shall guarantee conditions for the free activity of democratic political parties and social organizations."
    - yorwba 8y ago
      That podcaster might be ordered to cease the blasphemy, and if they don't comply their website might be blocked, but I don't think that puts Liberapay at risk if they don't operate as a publishing platform but only handle payments. That woman didn't lose her bank account, did she?
      - rjtavares 8y ago
        In any case, European countries don't have blasphemy laws (there might be exceptions to this - I know Ireland had it until recently). That case the parent linked is about defamation (calling Muhammed a paedophile), not blasphemy (for example saying Muhammed was not a prophet). EDIT: so I was wrong. See the comments below.
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
        yorwba 8y ago
        Austria does have a blasphemy law. https://www.ris.bka.gv.at/Dokument.wxe?ResultFunctionToken=a6b29d09-cb5f-43d6-a66a-356d138e19bf&Abfrage=Bundesnormen&Kundmachungsorgan=&Index=&Titel=STGB&Gesetzesnummer=&VonArtikel=&BisArtikel=&VonParagraf=188&BisParagraf=&VonAnlage=&BisAnlage=&Typ=&Kundmachungsnummer=&Unterzeichnungsdatum=&FassungVom=28.02.2019&VonInkrafttretedatum=&BisInkrafttretedatum=&VonAusserkrafttretedatum=&BisAusserkrafttretedatum=&NormabschnittnummerKombination=Und&ImRisSeitVonDatum=&ImRisSeitBisDatum=&ImRisSeit=Undefined&ResultPageSize=100&Suchworte=&Dokumentnummer=NOR12029737 https://www.ris.bka.gv.at/Dokument.wxe?ResultFunctionToken=a... Specifically, it covers disparagement and mockery of religions and traditions if it is likely to cause justified anger. That leaves a lot open to interpretation (when is anger justified?) but it seems clearly aimed at blasphemy.
        leereeves 8y ago
        The charge was blasphemy, or, in the words used in the article: "disparagement of religious precepts". It could not be defamation because there is plenty of evidence that Muhammad did marry and have sex with a child. That was not doubted even within the Muslim community until it became a source of controversy in modern times. With Ireland's recent repeal, it seems there are now only 17 European countries with blasphemy laws, including Austria, where this case happened: > Andorra, Austria, Cyprus, Finland, Germany, Greece, Italy, Liechtenstein, Poland, Portugal, the Russian Federation, San Marino, Spain, Switzerland, Turkey, the United Kingdom (Northern Ireland and Scotland) and the Vatican City. This list excluded countries like Belgium and Luxembourg, which provide narrower provisions for insulting the objects of a religion in places of worship or public ceremonies. https://ipi.media/despite-danish-repeal-blasphemy-laws-still-common-in-europe/ https://ipi.media/despite-danish-repeal-blasphemy-laws-still...
    - kurtisc 8y ago
      All countries in the EU must follow article 11 of the CFR.
- IGN 8y ago
  what?
- sametmax 8y ago
  We still have Charlie Hebdo putting drawings of Mahomet on the cover so there is a still a lot of margin. But it's good to stay vigilent.
  - badpun 8y ago
    It's not banned by law, but, especially after what happened to Charlie Hebdo (and it wasn't the first or the last incident like that, however probably most drastic), I'd say people are afraid to publicly say negative things about Islam, because the threat to their lives is very real. So, while we might have freedom of speech written into the laws and the state per se is not taking it away from us, it's also not protecting it enough from extremists who are against it.
    - heavenlyblue 8y ago
      By the same argument, we can assume everyone in the US is now afraid of going to war after 9/11?
    - sametmax 8y ago
      That's pretty much the history of entire humanity. Freedom of speech doesn't mean you are free from the consequences of speaking, it means that the country you live in consider it a right. And CH kept publishing on the same theme AFTER the murders, showing that they do, indeed, have freedom of speech, and are willing to use it.
      - badpun 8y ago
        1. It is not freedom of speech, if the consequence of speach is death. 2. If the country considers freedom of speech a right, shouldn’t the country make serious attempts to protect it? It does so for other human rights.
        sametmax 8y ago
        Free speech is a general society convention, omnipotence doesn't exist. You have the right to not be raped as well, doesn't mean we can prevent all of them. What right do you know that can be guaranteed all the time, under any circonstance ?
- ernesth 8y ago
  Seeing as patreon, paypal, visa refuse clients because of their beliefs (alt-right) or their sexuality (which would be illegal in Europe), the US do not have free speech either
  - morganvachon 8y ago
    The US does have freedom of speech at the federal government level; i.e. the government is not supposed to repress speech. However, it appears the parent is intentionally conflating freedom of speech and a private entity's right to censor their own platform. One has literally nothing to do with the other; private entities in the US and abroad are largely free to run their platforms as they choose, including censoring content that violates their rules, and banning users who don't comply. The parent likely knows this, and yet chooses to deliberately misinform in their comment.
    - leereeves 8y ago
      Freedom of speech is a general concept. It's not limited to only government censorship.
    - ibeckermayer 8y ago
      Are we really going to pretend that financial institutions are “private” enterprises? I recall the taxpayer being forced to bail them out for their incompetence. They are effectively government institutions and should be regulated as such.
      - _red 8y ago
        Its more than that, banking is a legally granted monopoly license (ie. Federal Reserve). So they are enjoying all the perks of being government backed (protected monopoly + full bailout privileges), yet must endure none of the restrictions of a government agency. Best of both worlds.
        mruts 8y ago
        Banks operate under a ton of restrictions. Such as Dodd-Frank. It's pretty ironic that the solution for being "too big to fail" was to make the banks even bigger while also placing restrictions of many types of trading. What should have been done is just remove the FDIC insurance and let banks do whatever the fuck they want. The only way to learn that risk management is important is if you see some of your competitors as road kill on the side of the road.
- vetinari 8y ago
  Do not worry; all these companies are private enterprises, so in US, freedom of speech doesn't apply anyway. Patreon/Paypal/Visa/Mastercard/Twitter/Facebook will drop you like a hot potato, once you publish something mildly controversial.
  - nspkr 8y ago
    So what? If Liberapay was based in the US, they could choose to continue hosting you if they wanted to. In the EU, they don't have that option.
    - Traster 8y ago
      That's a theoretical rather than a real objection since even if your platform doesn't get shut down the US payment processors such as paypal can shut you down and they're very difficult to get around - just ask subscribestar.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - vetinari 8y ago
      This just in: https://twitter.com/michellemalkin/status/1100760197553737734 https://twitter.com/michellemalkin/status/110076019755373773... Twitter sends legal warning for blasphemy. They couldn't find better timing for illustrating the point.
      - SenHeng 8y ago
        The amount of ‘America! Fuck yea!’ in that thread is cringe inducing. Is there nobody trying to talk about the issue at hand without invoking any of the crazy emotional appeals to American exceptionalism or Muslim hatred?
        vetinari 8y ago
        > The amount of ‘America! Fuck yea!’ in that thread is cringe inducing. Is there nobody trying to talk about the issue at hand without invoking any of the crazy emotional appeals to American exceptionalism I was literally arguing, that the nice theoretical point of guaranteed free speech is null and void by the current implementation of communication/publishing/payment processing. Where do you find 'America! Fuck yea!' in that? If anything, it is a critique of the current status, which hides ugly reality behind nice theory. > or Muslim hatred? Oh boy, another huge can of worms. Muslims still have no idea, what is a hatred in the West. They interchange criticism with hatred, and then they react somewhere between rioting to violence, fueling the vicious circle. They have no idea how Christians were/are pushed around in the West (you can start with the Covington issue recently: they were automatically guilty for being white and Catholics); or don't even consider how they behaved/are behaving towards Christians in the Middle East. Food for thought: ever seen Christian no-go zone in Saudi Arabia? Thought so.
- the_duke 8y ago
  I see you have a deep understanding of European laws, which remarkably are also exactly the same for all 44 countries end for all 28 EU members. Care to enlighten us?
NicoJuicy 8y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19270786 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19270786 European non-profit is not the same as American non-profit. So i made a new item for liberapay, since I thought it was worth it. Also, I would much rather see Liberapay on the frontpage of HN than Facebook "fan subscriptions"... We have enough multinationals that try to claim 30% on top of someone else's work.
- NicoJuicy 8y ago
  Fyi. HN has flagged it ( lower ranking ) and removed European and 0 commission from the title without moderation comment ? ... :(
  - mfoy_ 8y ago
    Generally speaking submissions should just match the <title> of the page... so if you want, write a blog post about it, then submit the blog post?
briandear 8y ago
So who pays the credit card processing fees?
- TAForObvReasons 8y ago
  It's passthrough: https://liberapay.com/about/faq#fees https://liberapay.com/about/faq#fees Liberapay doesn't take anything off the top

Liberapay takes 0% https://liberapay.com/ https://liberapay.com/ It's European non-profit and open source. It's funded by the donation on it's own platform.

by jelv 8y ago

Liberapay takes 0% https://liberapay.com/ https://liberapay.com/ It's European non-profit and open source. It's funded by the donation on it's own platform.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

nspkr 8y ago

Very careful with this option, as it's based in the EU which means free speech is not considered; that makes it a very dangerous option for podcast and youtube creators, opinion bloggers, etc.

DuckyC 8y ago
Are you saying that there isn't free speech in the EU? What are you basing this statement on?
- nspkr 8y ago
  Many countries in the EU have blasphemy laws and the European Court of Human Rights says they are okay: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/10/its-not-free-speech-criticize-muhammad-echr-ruled/574174/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/10/its-not-fr... If someone criticised Jesus Christ in their podcast (for example), they would be putting Liberapay at risk. I don't believe Liberapay would allow that, so they'd just ban the user. That's what makes Liberapay a risky option.
  - rjtavares 8y ago
    That's quite different from "free speech is not considered". Every country has free speech exceptions: for example, in the USA "there are several common-law exceptions, including obscenity,defamation,incitement to riot or imminent lawless action,fighting words,fraud, speech covered by copyright, and speech integral to criminal conduct" In th EU: > The Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union has been legally binding since December 1, 2009 when the Treaty of Lisbon became fully ratified and effective. Article 11 of the Charter, in part mirroring the language of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the European Convention on Human Rights, provides that > 1. Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. > 2. The freedom and pluralism of the media shall be respected. The European Court of Justice takes into account both the Charter and the Convention when making its rulings. According to the Treaty of Lisbon, the European Union accedes to the European Convention as an entity in its own right, making the Convention binding not only on the governments of the member states but also on the supranational institutions of the EU. So, is speech in USA "freer" than in the EU? Yes. But in both cases free speech is recognized as a right. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_by_country
    - gspetr 8y ago
      > So, is speech in USA "freer" than in the EU? Yes. But in both cases free speech is recognized as a right. True, but also trivial. Everyone pays lip service to free speech, even the most serious violators of it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_North_Korea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_North_Korea Article 67 states: "Citizens are guaranteed freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly, demonstration and association. The State shall guarantee conditions for the free activity of democratic political parties and social organizations."
  - yorwba 8y ago
    That podcaster might be ordered to cease the blasphemy, and if they don't comply their website might be blocked, but I don't think that puts Liberapay at risk if they don't operate as a publishing platform but only handle payments. That woman didn't lose her bank account, did she?
    - rjtavares 8y ago
      In any case, European countries don't have blasphemy laws (there might be exceptions to this - I know Ireland had it until recently). That case the parent linked is about defamation (calling Muhammed a paedophile), not blasphemy (for example saying Muhammed was not a prophet). EDIT: so I was wrong. See the comments below.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - yorwba 8y ago
        Austria does have a blasphemy law. https://www.ris.bka.gv.at/Dokument.wxe?ResultFunctionToken=a6b29d09-cb5f-43d6-a66a-356d138e19bf&Abfrage=Bundesnormen&Kundmachungsorgan=&Index=&Titel=STGB&Gesetzesnummer=&VonArtikel=&BisArtikel=&VonParagraf=188&BisParagraf=&VonAnlage=&BisAnlage=&Typ=&Kundmachungsnummer=&Unterzeichnungsdatum=&FassungVom=28.02.2019&VonInkrafttretedatum=&BisInkrafttretedatum=&VonAusserkrafttretedatum=&BisAusserkrafttretedatum=&NormabschnittnummerKombination=Und&ImRisSeitVonDatum=&ImRisSeitBisDatum=&ImRisSeit=Undefined&ResultPageSize=100&Suchworte=&Dokumentnummer=NOR12029737 https://www.ris.bka.gv.at/Dokument.wxe?ResultFunctionToken=a... Specifically, it covers disparagement and mockery of religions and traditions if it is likely to cause justified anger. That leaves a lot open to interpretation (when is anger justified?) but it seems clearly aimed at blasphemy.
      - leereeves 8y ago
        The charge was blasphemy, or, in the words used in the article: "disparagement of religious precepts". It could not be defamation because there is plenty of evidence that Muhammad did marry and have sex with a child. That was not doubted even within the Muslim community until it became a source of controversy in modern times. With Ireland's recent repeal, it seems there are now only 17 European countries with blasphemy laws, including Austria, where this case happened: > Andorra, Austria, Cyprus, Finland, Germany, Greece, Italy, Liechtenstein, Poland, Portugal, the Russian Federation, San Marino, Spain, Switzerland, Turkey, the United Kingdom (Northern Ireland and Scotland) and the Vatican City. This list excluded countries like Belgium and Luxembourg, which provide narrower provisions for insulting the objects of a religion in places of worship or public ceremonies. https://ipi.media/despite-danish-repeal-blasphemy-laws-still-common-in-europe/ https://ipi.media/despite-danish-repeal-blasphemy-laws-still...
  - kurtisc 8y ago
    All countries in the EU must follow article 11 of the CFR.
IGN 8y ago
what?
sametmax 8y ago
We still have Charlie Hebdo putting drawings of Mahomet on the cover so there is a still a lot of margin. But it's good to stay vigilent.
- badpun 8y ago
  It's not banned by law, but, especially after what happened to Charlie Hebdo (and it wasn't the first or the last incident like that, however probably most drastic), I'd say people are afraid to publicly say negative things about Islam, because the threat to their lives is very real. So, while we might have freedom of speech written into the laws and the state per se is not taking it away from us, it's also not protecting it enough from extremists who are against it.
  - heavenlyblue 8y ago
    By the same argument, we can assume everyone in the US is now afraid of going to war after 9/11?
  - sametmax 8y ago
    That's pretty much the history of entire humanity. Freedom of speech doesn't mean you are free from the consequences of speaking, it means that the country you live in consider it a right. And CH kept publishing on the same theme AFTER the murders, showing that they do, indeed, have freedom of speech, and are willing to use it.
    - badpun 8y ago
      1. It is not freedom of speech, if the consequence of speach is death. 2. If the country considers freedom of speech a right, shouldn’t the country make serious attempts to protect it? It does so for other human rights.
      - sametmax 8y ago
        Free speech is a general society convention, omnipotence doesn't exist. You have the right to not be raped as well, doesn't mean we can prevent all of them. What right do you know that can be guaranteed all the time, under any circonstance ?
ernesth 8y ago
Seeing as patreon, paypal, visa refuse clients because of their beliefs (alt-right) or their sexuality (which would be illegal in Europe), the US do not have free speech either
- morganvachon 8y ago
  The US does have freedom of speech at the federal government level; i.e. the government is not supposed to repress speech. However, it appears the parent is intentionally conflating freedom of speech and a private entity's right to censor their own platform. One has literally nothing to do with the other; private entities in the US and abroad are largely free to run their platforms as they choose, including censoring content that violates their rules, and banning users who don't comply. The parent likely knows this, and yet chooses to deliberately misinform in their comment.
  - leereeves 8y ago
    Freedom of speech is a general concept. It's not limited to only government censorship.
  - ibeckermayer 8y ago
    Are we really going to pretend that financial institutions are “private” enterprises? I recall the taxpayer being forced to bail them out for their incompetence. They are effectively government institutions and should be regulated as such.
    - _red 8y ago
      Its more than that, banking is a legally granted monopoly license (ie. Federal Reserve). So they are enjoying all the perks of being government backed (protected monopoly + full bailout privileges), yet must endure none of the restrictions of a government agency. Best of both worlds.
      - mruts 8y ago
        Banks operate under a ton of restrictions. Such as Dodd-Frank. It's pretty ironic that the solution for being "too big to fail" was to make the banks even bigger while also placing restrictions of many types of trading. What should have been done is just remove the FDIC insurance and let banks do whatever the fuck they want. The only way to learn that risk management is important is if you see some of your competitors as road kill on the side of the road.
vetinari 8y ago
Do not worry; all these companies are private enterprises, so in US, freedom of speech doesn't apply anyway. Patreon/Paypal/Visa/Mastercard/Twitter/Facebook will drop you like a hot potato, once you publish something mildly controversial.
- nspkr 8y ago
  So what? If Liberapay was based in the US, they could choose to continue hosting you if they wanted to. In the EU, they don't have that option.
  - Traster 8y ago
    That's a theoretical rather than a real objection since even if your platform doesn't get shut down the US payment processors such as paypal can shut you down and they're very difficult to get around - just ask subscribestar.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - vetinari 8y ago
    This just in: https://twitter.com/michellemalkin/status/1100760197553737734 https://twitter.com/michellemalkin/status/110076019755373773... Twitter sends legal warning for blasphemy. They couldn't find better timing for illustrating the point.
    - SenHeng 8y ago
      The amount of ‘America! Fuck yea!’ in that thread is cringe inducing. Is there nobody trying to talk about the issue at hand without invoking any of the crazy emotional appeals to American exceptionalism or Muslim hatred?
      - vetinari 8y ago
        > The amount of ‘America! Fuck yea!’ in that thread is cringe inducing. Is there nobody trying to talk about the issue at hand without invoking any of the crazy emotional appeals to American exceptionalism I was literally arguing, that the nice theoretical point of guaranteed free speech is null and void by the current implementation of communication/publishing/payment processing. Where do you find 'America! Fuck yea!' in that? If anything, it is a critique of the current status, which hides ugly reality behind nice theory. > or Muslim hatred? Oh boy, another huge can of worms. Muslims still have no idea, what is a hatred in the West. They interchange criticism with hatred, and then they react somewhere between rioting to violence, fueling the vicious circle. They have no idea how Christians were/are pushed around in the West (you can start with the Covington issue recently: they were automatically guilty for being white and Catholics); or don't even consider how they behaved/are behaving towards Christians in the Middle East. Food for thought: ever seen Christian no-go zone in Saudi Arabia? Thought so.
the_duke 8y ago
I see you have a deep understanding of European laws, which remarkably are also exactly the same for all 44 countries end for all 28 EU members. Care to enlighten us?

NicoJuicy 8y ago

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19270786 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19270786 European non-profit is not the same as American non-profit. So i made a new item for liberapay, since I thought it was worth it. Also, I would much rather see Liberapay on the frontpage of HN than Facebook "fan subscriptions"... We have enough multinationals that try to claim 30% on top of someone else's work.

NicoJuicy 8y ago
Fyi. HN has flagged it ( lower ranking ) and removed European and 0 commission from the title without moderation comment ? ... :(
- mfoy_ 8y ago
  Generally speaking submissions should just match the <title> of the page... so if you want, write a blog post about it, then submit the blog post?

briandear 8y ago

So who pays the credit card processing fees?

TAForObvReasons 8y ago
It's passthrough: https://liberapay.com/about/faq#fees https://liberapay.com/about/faq#fees Liberapay doesn't take anything off the top