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I think we are mistaking creepy for analytical visual profiling and database management. The idea of physical customers being captured as users with records of

I think we are mistaking creepy for analytical visual profiling and database management. The idea of physical customers being captured as users with records of personal sales trends based on demographics, social behavior, and appearance is interesting. Ads will exist whether we like it it not. If tracking software can at least make these annoying ads more accurate, why not? Not to mention, the survelliance will reduce shop lifting and provide more details to authorities by pinpointing suspects.

taneq 8y ago
The focus on "advertising" in all of these discussions is misleading. It's not about ads. It's about creating an information asymmetry in the market in order to exploit people. The market is a hidden-information game. If you know that I need the medicine or I'll die, you can charge me every cent I own for it and I have to pay. If I know that you need to sell to make your monthly repayments, I know I can lowball you. The party with the most information is at an advantage. And invading peoples' privacy puts them at a commercial disadvantage.
- mastrsushi 8y ago
  We all read about Martin Shkreli, but this is about convenient store products. The worst case being Plan B pills, which I don't see being any more exploited than their current outrageous $50 value.
  - perl4ever 8y ago
    Once you have entered a grocery or convenience store, you are fairly committed. That is, if you notice something is priced outrageously, you could conceivably get mad enough to walk out, but an awful lot of things could have their price doubled and you would still buy it if it is what you came for specifically and you aren't paying attention. Even if you are paying attention, it costs money and time to drive elsewhere. If someone knows that you are thirsty and only came in for a cold drink, they could increase its price. If someone knows you are late for something, they can probably increase the price of what you need to buy even more. People vastly underestimate the manipulative power of information.
pdkl95 8y ago
> creepy Creepy is the right word. It might even be too soft; some of my non-technical friends would probably prefer "target that needs to be razed[1]". > The idea ... is interesting. The Teller-Ulam design[2] is "interesting". That doesn't justify using it. > Ads Ads are the least interesting use for behavioral data[3]. Why are you ignoring all of the other uses (including malicious uses)? > make these annoying ads more accurate, The idea that target advertising's purpose is to make ads less annoying or more accurate is a scam. Advertising isn't concerned with your interests, it's there to get you to buy something. Ads of often more annoying on purpose, in an effort to get you to notice it. Targeting can make your ads less "accurate" (from your perspective) because you don't need to be pushed toward buying things in which you are already interested. Instead, targeting lets people that want to change your mind about needing a product show their ad only to people like you. > the survelliance will reduce shop lifting and provide more details to authorities by pinpointing suspects This is exactly the type of additional use-case I was talking about. Now what about when (not if) malicious actors get their hands on that data? Or it gets sold to your insurance company?[3] [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18775456 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18775456 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermonuclear_weapon#Basic_principle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermonuclear_weapon#Basic_pri... [3] http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/02/shoshana-zuboff-q-and-a-the-age-of-surveillance-capital.html http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/02/shoshana-zuboff-q-and...

taneq 8y ago

The focus on "advertising" in all of these discussions is misleading. It's not about ads. It's about creating an information asymmetry in the market in order to exploit people. The market is a hidden-information game. If you know that I need the medicine or I'll die, you can charge me every cent I own for it and I have to pay. If I know that you need to sell to make your monthly repayments, I know I can lowball you. The party with the most information is at an advantage. And invading peoples' privacy puts them at a commercial disadvantage.

mastrsushi 8y ago
We all read about Martin Shkreli, but this is about convenient store products. The worst case being Plan B pills, which I don't see being any more exploited than their current outrageous $50 value.
- perl4ever 8y ago
  Once you have entered a grocery or convenience store, you are fairly committed. That is, if you notice something is priced outrageously, you could conceivably get mad enough to walk out, but an awful lot of things could have their price doubled and you would still buy it if it is what you came for specifically and you aren't paying attention. Even if you are paying attention, it costs money and time to drive elsewhere. If someone knows that you are thirsty and only came in for a cold drink, they could increase its price. If someone knows you are late for something, they can probably increase the price of what you need to buy even more. People vastly underestimate the manipulative power of information.

pdkl95 8y ago

> creepy Creepy is the right word. It might even be too soft; some of my non-technical friends would probably prefer "target that needs to be razed[1]". > The idea ... is interesting. The Teller-Ulam design[2] is "interesting". That doesn't justify using it. > Ads Ads are the least interesting use for behavioral data[3]. Why are you ignoring all of the other uses (including malicious uses)? > make these annoying ads more accurate, The idea that target advertising's purpose is to make ads less annoying or more accurate is a scam. Advertising isn't concerned with your interests, it's there to get you to buy something. Ads of often more annoying on purpose, in an effort to get you to notice it. Targeting can make your ads less "accurate" (from your perspective) because you don't need to be pushed toward buying things in which you are already interested. Instead, targeting lets people that want to change your mind about needing a product show their ad only to people like you. > the survelliance will reduce shop lifting and provide more details to authorities by pinpointing suspects This is exactly the type of additional use-case I was talking about. Now what about when (not if) malicious actors get their hands on that data? Or it gets sold to your insurance company?[3] [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18775456 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18775456 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermonuclear_weapon#Basic_principle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermonuclear_weapon#Basic_pri... [3] http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/02/shoshana-zuboff-q-and-a-the-age-of-surveillance-capital.html http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/02/shoshana-zuboff-q-and...