5 ms·

Don't see the big deal about yet another screen/ advertisement platform, especially in a public convenience store. The fact that 'it watches you' is a creepy fo

by reidjs 8y ago

Don't see the big deal about yet another screen/ advertisement platform, especially in a public convenience store. The fact that 'it watches you' is a creepy for sure, but don't forget they've already got video cameras in most these stores. Admittedly the intent is different (crime prevention vs marketing), but I couldn't care less if they know what kind of soda I like.

jamestanderson 8y ago
I just hate the feeling that we're moving towards a world where you can't go anywhere without being sold something or having your thoughts manipulated by a carefully crafted advertising campaign. I can control to some extent what I see online, not so much in the "real world".
- booleandilemma 8y ago
  Maybe in the future we’ll have to wear glasses with ad blocking software installed :) I wouldn’t mind having a pair of those right now actually.
- morpheuskafka 8y ago
  > you can't go anywhere without being sold something Hmm, that's so different from what the purpose of a grocery store is supposed to be right?
  - lmitchell 8y ago
    Aren't they different, though? When I go into a grocery store, the deal is, they put out a selection of things, I pick the ones I want, then I go home. This is actively trying to manipulate me personally into buying something that is not one of my original desires. I mean, I guess grocery stores already do this in some ways, in choosing what to feature... they do effectively 'advertise' certain products. But this seems more like it's trying to manipulate my behaviours, rather than trying to fulfill my desires as well as possible. I'm not sure how different it is... but it feels a lot different to me.
    - jack_h 8y ago
      A grocery store already manipulates consumers though, e.g. they put the milk at the very back so you have to walk through the store which increases the chances you'll buy something else.
      - lmitchell 8y ago
        Right, this is what I was alluding to with 'choosing what to feature'. But I honestly am not sure whether a line should be drawn here, and if it should, where it should be drawn. I know that one feels distinctly creepier than the other, though, so I'm sort of hoping someone chimes in and can clarify my thoughts better than I can :)
      - cr0sh 8y ago
        They also place things up high on shelves, or down low - depending on what the item is, what the manufacturer or reseller has purchased in space, who it is marketed to (for instance, certain cereals are placed lower for kids to see). Part of this is why I prefer to shop at Business Costco for a lot of things. While I am sure a similar tactic is being done, it is being aimed at other businesses - and since I am not a business, it doesn't affect me as much (though it does confuse me why they place certain things side by side - but if you think about it like what businesses are looking for and the type of business - then the placements make more sense).
- rchaud 8y ago
  I don't even think it's possible to control it online. Take search results for example. The results returned are based on domain authority, keyword matching and links to that site from other sites (+ a bunch of other factors). It shouldn't come as any surprise then that the content served up will be half-hearted blog posts from corporations and start ups done solely for lead generation. Plus there are those shysters that use keyword-stuffed titles to rank well, like "Ultimate beginner's guide to Amazon AWS (2019)". I'm not even going to mention Youtube's recommendation pane because I have no idea how they linked my video views of music tracks and sports highlights to recommend a 1 hour Jordan Peterson lecture or an "ultimate feminist cringe compilation".
fromthestart 8y ago
Video cameras aren't building personal profiles on you with ml. > I couldn't care less if they know what kind of soda I like You creeping intrusiveness will stop with beverage preferences? What if certain beverages are correlated with political leaning, like veganism?
- narsil 8y ago
  Nothing seems to indicate that the cameras are building personal profiles that persist across sessions. That would be hard to do anyway, requiring some kind of recognition technology or assistance tracking consumers beyond just that aisle all the way to the register. It looks like they're tracking aggregate statistics at most.
  - spinach 8y ago
    Face recognition software isn't exactly a hard problem right now, especially when they can get a perfectly clear, hi-rez picture of you as you stand in front of the screen.
  - throwaway19834 8y ago
    That's what the club cards are for, and probably security cameras too. It's a software update away.
doesnt_know 8y ago
You might not care if it's just soda, but what about when it's along every aisle in the super market? What about at a pharmacy? A super market app on your smartphone (which was installed for coupons) pops up a notification on Tuesday to remind you to get condoms. Based on your history it knows you pick them up on the way home (it's date night). Your wife gets personalized discounts on sanitary pads on the 12th every month because it knows her cycle based on transaction history. A pro-life organization purchases whole sale data from one of the analytics firms and harasses those who get the morning after pill. At this point it's too late. As a consumer you have no choice, there is no competition left in the market place that doesn't do this. If journalists make a big noise about it at some point the chains argue this subsidizes the price of basic produce which directly helps those on low income. Now the message is if you value privacy, you ~hate the poor~.
- morpheuskafka 8y ago
  Pharmacies are protected by HIPAA. Cold drink purchases are not. Regulation is absolutely appropriate for the former, not for the latter.
  - chrismeller 8y ago
    The example here was the morning after pill, which is over the counter and therefore also not protected by any of the provisions of HIPAA (it only covers prescription drugs).
- reidjs 8y ago
  This is a bit of a snowball fallacy no? Those horror stories while sounding plausible are not a necessary outcome of this. I suspect they’re not going to learn as much as you may think from cameras in the soda aisle. I think they could actually learn quite a bit more by just hiring smart people to stand around the store and come to their own conclusions about how to move more product.
spinach 8y ago
At what point do we decide the surveillance/manipulation is actually creepy and too far? When the computers/gadgets are in our bodies, under our skin? How will stop it?
- trophycase 8y ago
  Dunno if it will ever stop. The mainstream is overflowing with people who defend anything in the name of capitalism. Basically anything is justifiable in the pursuit of making money... OR you must be ok with every single aspect of a company if you gave them any of your money. "Well you can't complain if you shop there"
luckman212 8y ago
But the security cameras offer some value to consumers; they are there to protect people. They are purely an expense for the store owner. In contrast, these nasty CoolerScreen things are there to extract value from your interactions with them (without consent). The bulk of this will go directly into CoolerScreens' pockets. A small pittance will likely be given to the shop owners to keep them happy. What's in it for you, the consumer? Absolutely nothing.
- taneq 8y ago
  What? Security cameras are there to provide evidence of shoplifting, not to protect the customers from assault.
morpheuskafka 8y ago
This. It's literally a store--of course there is going to be advertising. That's why it's free to walk in the door, because you are there to either buy or be sold something.
- trophycase 8y ago
  Yeah! I mean, They are trying to make money so anything is justifiable right?
- perl4ever 8y ago
  The problem is that the commitment represented by walking in the door can be exploited. Traditionally, societal mores prevented that on the assumption that being decent to customers allowed repeat business. Imagine if you have prices which seem reasonable, but there is an eye tracker which doubles the price on anything you are looking at. In olden days, you would kind of have that situation with a shopkeeper and no price labels, but then you would get to haggle. Now, you can't argue with it.
chrismeller 8y ago
Whether or not a retail chain is doing it now doesn't really matter. Stop assuming that the "security camera" is in any way there to protect you. Yes, maybe that's one of its functions, but HD video is HD video and they could very easily be using that same video feed for any number of other things, all while you smile and ignore the ubiquitous black domes. Let's not forget that casinos have been doing everything everyone is paranoid about in this thread for decades, and not just with cameras. Players cards, RFID chips, facial recognition, relationship databases... Have you ever seen a sign saying "hey, this camera uses facial recognition to track your path between blackjack, the bathroom, and the craps table"? Of course not, they all look exactly like the security cameras everywhere else.
NikkiA 8y ago
Because This: https://youtu.be/YJg02ivYzSs?t=125 https://youtu.be/YJg02ivYzSs?t=125 Is what it'll be like 10 years from now.

by reidjs 8y ago

jamestanderson 8y ago

I just hate the feeling that we're moving towards a world where you can't go anywhere without being sold something or having your thoughts manipulated by a carefully crafted advertising campaign. I can control to some extent what I see online, not so much in the "real world".

booleandilemma 8y ago
Maybe in the future we’ll have to wear glasses with ad blocking software installed :) I wouldn’t mind having a pair of those right now actually.
morpheuskafka 8y ago
> you can't go anywhere without being sold something Hmm, that's so different from what the purpose of a grocery store is supposed to be right?
- lmitchell 8y ago
  Aren't they different, though? When I go into a grocery store, the deal is, they put out a selection of things, I pick the ones I want, then I go home. This is actively trying to manipulate me personally into buying something that is not one of my original desires. I mean, I guess grocery stores already do this in some ways, in choosing what to feature... they do effectively 'advertise' certain products. But this seems more like it's trying to manipulate my behaviours, rather than trying to fulfill my desires as well as possible. I'm not sure how different it is... but it feels a lot different to me.
  - jack_h 8y ago
    A grocery store already manipulates consumers though, e.g. they put the milk at the very back so you have to walk through the store which increases the chances you'll buy something else.
    - lmitchell 8y ago
      Right, this is what I was alluding to with 'choosing what to feature'. But I honestly am not sure whether a line should be drawn here, and if it should, where it should be drawn. I know that one feels distinctly creepier than the other, though, so I'm sort of hoping someone chimes in and can clarify my thoughts better than I can :)
    - cr0sh 8y ago
      They also place things up high on shelves, or down low - depending on what the item is, what the manufacturer or reseller has purchased in space, who it is marketed to (for instance, certain cereals are placed lower for kids to see). Part of this is why I prefer to shop at Business Costco for a lot of things. While I am sure a similar tactic is being done, it is being aimed at other businesses - and since I am not a business, it doesn't affect me as much (though it does confuse me why they place certain things side by side - but if you think about it like what businesses are looking for and the type of business - then the placements make more sense).
rchaud 8y ago
I don't even think it's possible to control it online. Take search results for example. The results returned are based on domain authority, keyword matching and links to that site from other sites (+ a bunch of other factors). It shouldn't come as any surprise then that the content served up will be half-hearted blog posts from corporations and start ups done solely for lead generation. Plus there are those shysters that use keyword-stuffed titles to rank well, like "Ultimate beginner's guide to Amazon AWS (2019)". I'm not even going to mention Youtube's recommendation pane because I have no idea how they linked my video views of music tracks and sports highlights to recommend a 1 hour Jordan Peterson lecture or an "ultimate feminist cringe compilation".

fromthestart 8y ago

Video cameras aren't building personal profiles on you with ml. > I couldn't care less if they know what kind of soda I like You creeping intrusiveness will stop with beverage preferences? What if certain beverages are correlated with political leaning, like veganism?

narsil 8y ago
Nothing seems to indicate that the cameras are building personal profiles that persist across sessions. That would be hard to do anyway, requiring some kind of recognition technology or assistance tracking consumers beyond just that aisle all the way to the register. It looks like they're tracking aggregate statistics at most.
- spinach 8y ago
  Face recognition software isn't exactly a hard problem right now, especially when they can get a perfectly clear, hi-rez picture of you as you stand in front of the screen.
- throwaway19834 8y ago
  That's what the club cards are for, and probably security cameras too. It's a software update away.

doesnt_know 8y ago

You might not care if it's just soda, but what about when it's along every aisle in the super market? What about at a pharmacy? A super market app on your smartphone (which was installed for coupons) pops up a notification on Tuesday to remind you to get condoms. Based on your history it knows you pick them up on the way home (it's date night). Your wife gets personalized discounts on sanitary pads on the 12th every month because it knows her cycle based on transaction history. A pro-life organization purchases whole sale data from one of the analytics firms and harasses those who get the morning after pill. At this point it's too late. As a consumer you have no choice, there is no competition left in the market place that doesn't do this. If journalists make a big noise about it at some point the chains argue this subsidizes the price of basic produce which directly helps those on low income. Now the message is if you value privacy, you ~hate the poor~.

morpheuskafka 8y ago
Pharmacies are protected by HIPAA. Cold drink purchases are not. Regulation is absolutely appropriate for the former, not for the latter.
- chrismeller 8y ago
  The example here was the morning after pill, which is over the counter and therefore also not protected by any of the provisions of HIPAA (it only covers prescription drugs).
reidjs 8y ago
This is a bit of a snowball fallacy no? Those horror stories while sounding plausible are not a necessary outcome of this. I suspect they’re not going to learn as much as you may think from cameras in the soda aisle. I think they could actually learn quite a bit more by just hiring smart people to stand around the store and come to their own conclusions about how to move more product.

spinach 8y ago

At what point do we decide the surveillance/manipulation is actually creepy and too far? When the computers/gadgets are in our bodies, under our skin? How will stop it?

trophycase 8y ago
Dunno if it will ever stop. The mainstream is overflowing with people who defend anything in the name of capitalism. Basically anything is justifiable in the pursuit of making money... OR you must be ok with every single aspect of a company if you gave them any of your money. "Well you can't complain if you shop there"

luckman212 8y ago

But the security cameras offer some value to consumers; they are there to protect people. They are purely an expense for the store owner. In contrast, these nasty CoolerScreen things are there to extract value from your interactions with them (without consent). The bulk of this will go directly into CoolerScreens' pockets. A small pittance will likely be given to the shop owners to keep them happy. What's in it for you, the consumer? Absolutely nothing.

taneq 8y ago
What? Security cameras are there to provide evidence of shoplifting, not to protect the customers from assault.

morpheuskafka 8y ago

This. It's literally a store--of course there is going to be advertising. That's why it's free to walk in the door, because you are there to either buy or be sold something.

trophycase 8y ago
Yeah! I mean, They are trying to make money so anything is justifiable right?
perl4ever 8y ago
The problem is that the commitment represented by walking in the door can be exploited. Traditionally, societal mores prevented that on the assumption that being decent to customers allowed repeat business. Imagine if you have prices which seem reasonable, but there is an eye tracker which doubles the price on anything you are looking at. In olden days, you would kind of have that situation with a shopkeeper and no price labels, but then you would get to haggle. Now, you can't argue with it.

chrismeller 8y ago

Whether or not a retail chain is doing it now doesn't really matter. Stop assuming that the "security camera" is in any way there to protect you. Yes, maybe that's one of its functions, but HD video is HD video and they could very easily be using that same video feed for any number of other things, all while you smile and ignore the ubiquitous black domes. Let's not forget that casinos have been doing everything everyone is paranoid about in this thread for decades, and not just with cameras. Players cards, RFID chips, facial recognition, relationship databases... Have you ever seen a sign saying "hey, this camera uses facial recognition to track your path between blackjack, the bathroom, and the craps table"? Of course not, they all look exactly like the security cameras everywhere else.

NikkiA 8y ago

Because This: https://youtu.be/YJg02ivYzSs?t=125 https://youtu.be/YJg02ivYzSs?t=125 Is what it'll be like 10 years from now.