7 ms·

Creeping on You in the Cold Drinks Aisle

57 points by sundaeofshock 8y ago

reidjs 8y ago
Don't see the big deal about yet another screen/ advertisement platform, especially in a public convenience store. The fact that 'it watches you' is a creepy for sure, but don't forget they've already got video cameras in most these stores. Admittedly the intent is different (crime prevention vs marketing), but I couldn't care less if they know what kind of soda I like.
- jamestanderson 8y ago
  I just hate the feeling that we're moving towards a world where you can't go anywhere without being sold something or having your thoughts manipulated by a carefully crafted advertising campaign. I can control to some extent what I see online, not so much in the "real world".
  - booleandilemma 8y ago
    Maybe in the future we’ll have to wear glasses with ad blocking software installed :) I wouldn’t mind having a pair of those right now actually.
  - morpheuskafka 8y ago
    > you can't go anywhere without being sold something Hmm, that's so different from what the purpose of a grocery store is supposed to be right?
    - lmitchell 8y ago
      Aren't they different, though? When I go into a grocery store, the deal is, they put out a selection of things, I pick the ones I want, then I go home. This is actively trying to manipulate me personally into buying something that is not one of my original desires. I mean, I guess grocery stores already do this in some ways, in choosing what to feature... they do effectively 'advertise' certain products. But this seems more like it's trying to manipulate my behaviours, rather than trying to fulfill my desires as well as possible. I'm not sure how different it is... but it feels a lot different to me.
      - jack_h 8y ago
        A grocery store already manipulates consumers though, e.g. they put the milk at the very back so you have to walk through the store which increases the chances you'll buy something else.
        lmitchell 8y ago
        Right, this is what I was alluding to with 'choosing what to feature'. But I honestly am not sure whether a line should be drawn here, and if it should, where it should be drawn. I know that one feels distinctly creepier than the other, though, so I'm sort of hoping someone chimes in and can clarify my thoughts better than I can :)
        cr0sh 8y ago
        They also place things up high on shelves, or down low - depending on what the item is, what the manufacturer or reseller has purchased in space, who it is marketed to (for instance, certain cereals are placed lower for kids to see). Part of this is why I prefer to shop at Business Costco for a lot of things. While I am sure a similar tactic is being done, it is being aimed at other businesses - and since I am not a business, it doesn't affect me as much (though it does confuse me why they place certain things side by side - but if you think about it like what businesses are looking for and the type of business - then the placements make more sense).
  - rchaud 8y ago
    I don't even think it's possible to control it online. Take search results for example. The results returned are based on domain authority, keyword matching and links to that site from other sites (+ a bunch of other factors). It shouldn't come as any surprise then that the content served up will be half-hearted blog posts from corporations and start ups done solely for lead generation. Plus there are those shysters that use keyword-stuffed titles to rank well, like "Ultimate beginner's guide to Amazon AWS (2019)". I'm not even going to mention Youtube's recommendation pane because I have no idea how they linked my video views of music tracks and sports highlights to recommend a 1 hour Jordan Peterson lecture or an "ultimate feminist cringe compilation".
- fromthestart 8y ago
  Video cameras aren't building personal profiles on you with ml. > I couldn't care less if they know what kind of soda I like You creeping intrusiveness will stop with beverage preferences? What if certain beverages are correlated with political leaning, like veganism?
  - narsil 8y ago
    Nothing seems to indicate that the cameras are building personal profiles that persist across sessions. That would be hard to do anyway, requiring some kind of recognition technology or assistance tracking consumers beyond just that aisle all the way to the register. It looks like they're tracking aggregate statistics at most.
    - spinach 8y ago
      Face recognition software isn't exactly a hard problem right now, especially when they can get a perfectly clear, hi-rez picture of you as you stand in front of the screen.
    - throwaway19834 8y ago
      That's what the club cards are for, and probably security cameras too. It's a software update away.
- doesnt_know 8y ago
  You might not care if it's just soda, but what about when it's along every aisle in the super market? What about at a pharmacy? A super market app on your smartphone (which was installed for coupons) pops up a notification on Tuesday to remind you to get condoms. Based on your history it knows you pick them up on the way home (it's date night). Your wife gets personalized discounts on sanitary pads on the 12th every month because it knows her cycle based on transaction history. A pro-life organization purchases whole sale data from one of the analytics firms and harasses those who get the morning after pill. At this point it's too late. As a consumer you have no choice, there is no competition left in the market place that doesn't do this. If journalists make a big noise about it at some point the chains argue this subsidizes the price of basic produce which directly helps those on low income. Now the message is if you value privacy, you ~hate the poor~.
  - morpheuskafka 8y ago
    Pharmacies are protected by HIPAA. Cold drink purchases are not. Regulation is absolutely appropriate for the former, not for the latter.
    - chrismeller 8y ago
      The example here was the morning after pill, which is over the counter and therefore also not protected by any of the provisions of HIPAA (it only covers prescription drugs).
  - reidjs 8y ago
    This is a bit of a snowball fallacy no? Those horror stories while sounding plausible are not a necessary outcome of this. I suspect they’re not going to learn as much as you may think from cameras in the soda aisle. I think they could actually learn quite a bit more by just hiring smart people to stand around the store and come to their own conclusions about how to move more product.
- spinach 8y ago
  At what point do we decide the surveillance/manipulation is actually creepy and too far? When the computers/gadgets are in our bodies, under our skin? How will stop it?
  - trophycase 8y ago
    Dunno if it will ever stop. The mainstream is overflowing with people who defend anything in the name of capitalism. Basically anything is justifiable in the pursuit of making money... OR you must be ok with every single aspect of a company if you gave them any of your money. "Well you can't complain if you shop there"
- luckman212 8y ago
  But the security cameras offer some value to consumers; they are there to protect people. They are purely an expense for the store owner. In contrast, these nasty CoolerScreen things are there to extract value from your interactions with them (without consent). The bulk of this will go directly into CoolerScreens' pockets. A small pittance will likely be given to the shop owners to keep them happy. What's in it for you, the consumer? Absolutely nothing.
  - taneq 8y ago
    What? Security cameras are there to provide evidence of shoplifting, not to protect the customers from assault.
- morpheuskafka 8y ago
  This. It's literally a store--of course there is going to be advertising. That's why it's free to walk in the door, because you are there to either buy or be sold something.
  - trophycase 8y ago
    Yeah! I mean, They are trying to make money so anything is justifiable right?
  - perl4ever 8y ago
    The problem is that the commitment represented by walking in the door can be exploited. Traditionally, societal mores prevented that on the assumption that being decent to customers allowed repeat business. Imagine if you have prices which seem reasonable, but there is an eye tracker which doubles the price on anything you are looking at. In olden days, you would kind of have that situation with a shopkeeper and no price labels, but then you would get to haggle. Now, you can't argue with it.
- chrismeller 8y ago
  Whether or not a retail chain is doing it now doesn't really matter. Stop assuming that the "security camera" is in any way there to protect you. Yes, maybe that's one of its functions, but HD video is HD video and they could very easily be using that same video feed for any number of other things, all while you smile and ignore the ubiquitous black domes. Let's not forget that casinos have been doing everything everyone is paranoid about in this thread for decades, and not just with cameras. Players cards, RFID chips, facial recognition, relationship databases... Have you ever seen a sign saying "hey, this camera uses facial recognition to track your path between blackjack, the bathroom, and the craps table"? Of course not, they all look exactly like the security cameras everywhere else.
- NikkiA 8y ago
  Because This: https://youtu.be/YJg02ivYzSs?t=125 https://youtu.be/YJg02ivYzSs?t=125 Is what it'll be like 10 years from now.
spectramax 8y ago
The whole advertisement industry and everything related to it is rotten. Why is today's marketing so filled with vile psychological tricks, creepy things like these coolers, always on mics, analytics about EVERYTHING, store smells and "branding, profiling and recommendation engines...I could go on and on about how advertisement is infuriating today. In old days, you might see ads in a magazine or a newspaper in the same way we see ads on Google, but they didn't have the kind of people coming up with insanely creepy ideas like today. I don't want to hang out with these folks. Who are these people? It is infuriating. Are there any sane alternatives to advertisement today? I don't want banners and flashing ads. Is there a model of advertisement which is "pull" instead of "push"? Kind of like trade shows but for the internet? I LOVE going to trade shows. There is so much value as an industrial consumer (I am an engineer) in attending trade shows - they provide real life demonstrations, new technology, latest methods and processes, face-to-face with people and I honestly don't mind people scanning my badges because there is consent.
- hedora 8y ago
  Display ads are the sane alternative you are asking for. Imagine the article had an ad for a privacy-respecting inventory prediction and optimization tool for grocers, and maybe a second ad for an ad blocker. That’d be totally cool from a privacy perspective (no tracking), and the ad purchasers would be paying a premium (prime real estate) to the site (actual content producers). However, it is harder to scale, I guess.
- exodust 8y ago
  Here in Australia they recently installed video advertising screens at many city tram stops in Melbourne. They are portrait-orientated 6 feet tall screens installed in the tram shelter wall where people stand and lean. The problem is on hot days these displays heat up. The fans inside start spinning fast and noisy. Hot air is blown out the bottom, right at people standing waiting for the tram, and the whole display is too hot and noisy to lean against or stand near. Consumers and the general public are always the last to benefit from "modern" advertising technology. It's always someone else who benefits, never the general public, who must cop noisy hot, overly bright video displays, or creepy surveillance so that someone makes more money selling those spaces. It's how the modern world is at the moment.
whoisjuan 8y ago
For anyone wondering, this is how they look: https://i.vimeocdn.com/video/737135814.webp?mw=1000&mh=562&q=70 https://i.vimeocdn.com/video/737135814.webp?mw=1000&mh=562&q...
- Adamantcheese 8y ago
  It lacks any sort of depth and it doesn't look like there's any product in stock honestly. I think it needs more work before it'll be a product people want, and even then, what's the market? I don't think retailers stocking junk food are going to be swapping out their doors for these at all. It's just not worth the investment, more than likely.
- exodust 8y ago
  And if your browser doesn't like the Google Chrome-only webp image format... https://i.vimeocdn.com/video/737135814.webp.png https://i.vimeocdn.com/video/737135814.webp.png
  - zamazingo 8y ago
    OP link worked in Firefox mobile
  - wil421 8y ago
    Thanks. First link didn’t work on safari in iOS.
  - gglitch 8y ago
    It's amazing that the blurry interstitial text visible between two shelves reads, "We'll help protect you." How did that get past the Orwell filter?
technobabble 8y ago
If anybody wants to see them in person, they are being tested in the Chicago Walgreens on Michigan ave. by the Chicago theater.
- glup 8y ago
  Anyone who wants to be seen by them in person can go to the same location.
  - mastrsushi 8y ago
    The store has cctv's, so you're going to be captured regardless.
Simulacra 8y ago
Related for those that want to learn more about how retail establishments track you: "No Place to Hide" by Robert O'Harrow Jr. Details the marketing and retail industry's use of camera, AI, and customer tracking. The really scary part is that it was written in 2004.
- sphinxpy 8y ago
  Thanks for the recommendation. As for the year it doesn't shock me in certain aspects. The camera data in the early 2000's is something I didn't consider though. I notice many people don't know or think that corporations use customer cards for more than a discount. I worked for one of the largest retailers in the U.S. and learned how far the "Plus" card data really goes. All of that data is sold as very in detailed profiles of customers to brokers who sell the data to other corporations and institutions. I worked for them for 10 years and watched it evolve from data harvesting through rewards cards to utilizing the checkout as an avenue of further data collection through facial recognition cameras and even heat sensors throughout the store building heat maps of customer flow. I am not sure exactly about the heat map data being sold or not, however, I am sure some broker could find a market for it but I do know the checkout camera data was sold. The company started utilizing the card system in the 90's and its checkout camera with heat mapping in the early 2010's. Personally, I never used a customer card with my name or address just to maintain some privacy level.
  - propogandist 8y ago
    There's an increasing amount of companies that are unfortunately using credit cards to track consumers. The only reliable option to 'opt-out' of tracking these days seems to be paying with cash. I'm interested in hearing more about the point of sale tracking and facial recognition though. Was face recognition just being used to track customers around the store through to checkout? Or are you suggesting that 'face id' data was captured and shared alongside purchasing activity, tied to the individual to a 3rd party??
    - sphinxpy 8y ago
      At the time I left, which was 4 years ago roughly, the facial recognition was used at the checkout area only. The perational area going from the beginning of the gondolas (aisles) that are where you might say the back of a line would be, all the way to the exit doors. This covered a large area but the only area using this at the time. The face ID system worked with the thermal mapping, which was used throughout the store, to create a projected customer volume for the front end management to prepare for. For instance the system tells the team that they have 1 register open but need 3 open now and 5 in 1 hour. The data from the facial recognition cameras was sold, this I know for certain, however, I do not know to what amount that data was put into the specific customer profile being built. My honest impression is it was being sold in a package with card profiles to make a better product for brokers. I've gone through meetings of how much this company wants to track you, how granular the specific customer profile was before the face & heat map system and the companies drive to find a place in the newer data markets that its competition was dealing in, in order to stay in business.
mastrsushi 8y ago
I think we are mistaking creepy for analytical visual profiling and database management. The idea of physical customers being captured as users with records of personal sales trends based on demographics, social behavior, and appearance is interesting. Ads will exist whether we like it it not. If tracking software can at least make these annoying ads more accurate, why not? Not to mention, the survelliance will reduce shop lifting and provide more details to authorities by pinpointing suspects.
- taneq 8y ago
  The focus on "advertising" in all of these discussions is misleading. It's not about ads. It's about creating an information asymmetry in the market in order to exploit people. The market is a hidden-information game. If you know that I need the medicine or I'll die, you can charge me every cent I own for it and I have to pay. If I know that you need to sell to make your monthly repayments, I know I can lowball you. The party with the most information is at an advantage. And invading peoples' privacy puts them at a commercial disadvantage.
  - mastrsushi 8y ago
    We all read about Martin Shkreli, but this is about convenient store products. The worst case being Plan B pills, which I don't see being any more exploited than their current outrageous $50 value.
    - perl4ever 8y ago
      Once you have entered a grocery or convenience store, you are fairly committed. That is, if you notice something is priced outrageously, you could conceivably get mad enough to walk out, but an awful lot of things could have their price doubled and you would still buy it if it is what you came for specifically and you aren't paying attention. Even if you are paying attention, it costs money and time to drive elsewhere. If someone knows that you are thirsty and only came in for a cold drink, they could increase its price. If someone knows you are late for something, they can probably increase the price of what you need to buy even more. People vastly underestimate the manipulative power of information.
mathgeek 8y ago
> Depending on the jurisdiction, the software may process facial images of consumers in real-time ... Perfect example of how there will always be a company that will do whatever they want as long as local laws don't prohibit it.
- OldHand2018 8y ago
  > do whatever they want as long as local laws don't prohibit it Both Walgreens and the company making the technology are based in a place where this is illegal.
akamoonknight 8y ago
I see something similar to this in the testing done for self driving cars. There's a lot of cars driving around that have a lot of sensors, sometimes on my 15 minute drive I see 5 or more. I'm sure that these cars are tracking information about the cars they drive past and have enough resolution to uniquely identify drivers. The fact they all share information with each and can aggregate that into a cohesive picture feels like an extreme invasion of privacy, even though I'm theoretically driving around in the public domain. Now, I still use Google maps to navigate around, so they know my location anyways, but I guess my fear is that more and more, even if you were able to totally 'disconnect', there's still no way to keep yourself private. This has probably always strictly been the case, my movements could always theoretically be tracked, but the capabilities are just becoming more and more clear to me. It really feels to me like the line between public and private needs to be re-evaluated, and even though life will go on anyways, the future worries me quite a bit.
huffmsa 8y ago
> We do not save the videos or images beyond this processing. So they're just going to magically improve their models with zero real-world data? I can hear the noses growing.
- everdrive 8y ago
  I assumed they were playing the old Facebook trick. "We don't save the images, just the data model that our computer builds from the images, so it's totally ok."
  - huffmsa 8y ago
    Going back and re-reading the excerpt that does appear to be what they're doing.
blue4 8y ago
Walgreens probably still does those late night stickers for price changes, if anything needs to be digitized it would be that. For the benefit of the employees that have to do that painful mess of a price change constantly. Next time you visit a Walgreens or similar store and see tags everywhere just consider how much waste there is to do that every week, sometimes with the same prices just a new colored sticker.
- heywire 8y ago
  We've had digitized (eInk, LCD) price tags for well over a decade now. They just haven't seemed to take off anywhere except for Kohls (at least in my area).
  - cr0sh 8y ago
    I noted in an earlier comment that I recently saw virtually complete usage of e-ink price tags at Best Buy (some fairly large - like tablet display size). But Kohls is where I first encountered them in the wild - they seem to be one of the earlier adopters.
tomatotomato37 8y ago
Honestly my biggest frustration with this is how much a complete waste of resources this is. The same practical effect could be achieved by installing the trackers/whatever on the outskirts of a standard door, replacing the price labels with 7 segments LEDs, and beefing up the glass insulation a bit; instead we are slapping a giant custom screen that has to be powered 24/7 over the mess that's probably going to end up more fragile than the average phone and uses more rare-earth's than the tesla parked outside.
- cr0sh 8y ago
  > replacing the price labels with 7 segments LEDs I recently went into a local Best Buy location after not having stepped inside one in about 10 years... ...aside from being impressed at how low the price was for a Samsung 85" QLED 4K television (about $3k USD - dirt cheap IMHO) - I was more intrigued by the price labels on the racks and such. It was something I only noticed after being there for 30 minutes or so, which either shows my age, lack of awareness, or something like that - or it shows just how things now blend in. All of the labels were some kind of "e-ink" based wireless tagging system. They had fooled me for a good while that they were the old-style paper labels that BB used to use, stuck in slip-case transparent windows on or near the merchandise. To my eyes, they were almost flawless. Looking closer, I could see certain issues that (besides the fact of the electronic frame they were in - which was really thin and subtle) revealed their true nature: Missing pixels, jaggies (like a bad fax), etc. Best Buy used to be "the place" I went for electronics, when they first came to the Phoenix area (early 90s). I helped to establish my credit using their in-store credit card system. But that recent experience of visiting them left a bad taste in my mouth. It wasn't the price labels, or even really their prices (which really weren't too outlandish) - it was just the whole feel of the place. Something seemed off about it, like it was trying to be something that just wasn't "it" any longer. Kinda like how K-Mart felt when places like Target and Walmart became "big" (I find both of those places, though, to feel similar to BB as well). The only thing I can attribute this to is how easy it has become to shop online for stuff, and the fact that I do most of my shopping online period. The only stuff I don't shop online for has been groceries and other food items. I expect that to change in the future, though. My only other shopping experiences - and the ones I enjoy - have been at what can only be described as "second-hand marketplaces" - used book stores, surplus electronics outlets, junkyards, hamfests, etc. Strangely, I prefer "shopping" at these places more than the general "commercial" outlets. For some reason, they are more comfortable to shop at/with - they feel less sanitized and more personal to me...

57 points by sundaeofshock 8y ago

Don't see the big deal about yet another screen/ advertisement platform, especially in a public convenience store. The fact that 'it watches you' is a creepy for sure, but don't forget they've already got video cameras in most these stores. Admittedly the intent is different (crime prevention vs marketing), but I couldn't care less if they know what kind of soda I like.

jamestanderson 8y ago
I just hate the feeling that we're moving towards a world where you can't go anywhere without being sold something or having your thoughts manipulated by a carefully crafted advertising campaign. I can control to some extent what I see online, not so much in the "real world".
- booleandilemma 8y ago
  Maybe in the future we’ll have to wear glasses with ad blocking software installed :) I wouldn’t mind having a pair of those right now actually.
- morpheuskafka 8y ago
  > you can't go anywhere without being sold something Hmm, that's so different from what the purpose of a grocery store is supposed to be right?
  - lmitchell 8y ago
    Aren't they different, though? When I go into a grocery store, the deal is, they put out a selection of things, I pick the ones I want, then I go home. This is actively trying to manipulate me personally into buying something that is not one of my original desires. I mean, I guess grocery stores already do this in some ways, in choosing what to feature... they do effectively 'advertise' certain products. But this seems more like it's trying to manipulate my behaviours, rather than trying to fulfill my desires as well as possible. I'm not sure how different it is... but it feels a lot different to me.
    - jack_h 8y ago
      A grocery store already manipulates consumers though, e.g. they put the milk at the very back so you have to walk through the store which increases the chances you'll buy something else.
      - lmitchell 8y ago
        Right, this is what I was alluding to with 'choosing what to feature'. But I honestly am not sure whether a line should be drawn here, and if it should, where it should be drawn. I know that one feels distinctly creepier than the other, though, so I'm sort of hoping someone chimes in and can clarify my thoughts better than I can :)
      - cr0sh 8y ago
        They also place things up high on shelves, or down low - depending on what the item is, what the manufacturer or reseller has purchased in space, who it is marketed to (for instance, certain cereals are placed lower for kids to see). Part of this is why I prefer to shop at Business Costco for a lot of things. While I am sure a similar tactic is being done, it is being aimed at other businesses - and since I am not a business, it doesn't affect me as much (though it does confuse me why they place certain things side by side - but if you think about it like what businesses are looking for and the type of business - then the placements make more sense).
- rchaud 8y ago
  I don't even think it's possible to control it online. Take search results for example. The results returned are based on domain authority, keyword matching and links to that site from other sites (+ a bunch of other factors). It shouldn't come as any surprise then that the content served up will be half-hearted blog posts from corporations and start ups done solely for lead generation. Plus there are those shysters that use keyword-stuffed titles to rank well, like "Ultimate beginner's guide to Amazon AWS (2019)". I'm not even going to mention Youtube's recommendation pane because I have no idea how they linked my video views of music tracks and sports highlights to recommend a 1 hour Jordan Peterson lecture or an "ultimate feminist cringe compilation".
fromthestart 8y ago
Video cameras aren't building personal profiles on you with ml. > I couldn't care less if they know what kind of soda I like You creeping intrusiveness will stop with beverage preferences? What if certain beverages are correlated with political leaning, like veganism?
- narsil 8y ago
  Nothing seems to indicate that the cameras are building personal profiles that persist across sessions. That would be hard to do anyway, requiring some kind of recognition technology or assistance tracking consumers beyond just that aisle all the way to the register. It looks like they're tracking aggregate statistics at most.
  - spinach 8y ago
    Face recognition software isn't exactly a hard problem right now, especially when they can get a perfectly clear, hi-rez picture of you as you stand in front of the screen.
  - throwaway19834 8y ago
    That's what the club cards are for, and probably security cameras too. It's a software update away.
doesnt_know 8y ago
You might not care if it's just soda, but what about when it's along every aisle in the super market? What about at a pharmacy? A super market app on your smartphone (which was installed for coupons) pops up a notification on Tuesday to remind you to get condoms. Based on your history it knows you pick them up on the way home (it's date night). Your wife gets personalized discounts on sanitary pads on the 12th every month because it knows her cycle based on transaction history. A pro-life organization purchases whole sale data from one of the analytics firms and harasses those who get the morning after pill. At this point it's too late. As a consumer you have no choice, there is no competition left in the market place that doesn't do this. If journalists make a big noise about it at some point the chains argue this subsidizes the price of basic produce which directly helps those on low income. Now the message is if you value privacy, you ~hate the poor~.
- morpheuskafka 8y ago
  Pharmacies are protected by HIPAA. Cold drink purchases are not. Regulation is absolutely appropriate for the former, not for the latter.
  - chrismeller 8y ago
    The example here was the morning after pill, which is over the counter and therefore also not protected by any of the provisions of HIPAA (it only covers prescription drugs).
- reidjs 8y ago
  This is a bit of a snowball fallacy no? Those horror stories while sounding plausible are not a necessary outcome of this. I suspect they’re not going to learn as much as you may think from cameras in the soda aisle. I think they could actually learn quite a bit more by just hiring smart people to stand around the store and come to their own conclusions about how to move more product.
spinach 8y ago
At what point do we decide the surveillance/manipulation is actually creepy and too far? When the computers/gadgets are in our bodies, under our skin? How will stop it?
- trophycase 8y ago
  Dunno if it will ever stop. The mainstream is overflowing with people who defend anything in the name of capitalism. Basically anything is justifiable in the pursuit of making money... OR you must be ok with every single aspect of a company if you gave them any of your money. "Well you can't complain if you shop there"
luckman212 8y ago
But the security cameras offer some value to consumers; they are there to protect people. They are purely an expense for the store owner. In contrast, these nasty CoolerScreen things are there to extract value from your interactions with them (without consent). The bulk of this will go directly into CoolerScreens' pockets. A small pittance will likely be given to the shop owners to keep them happy. What's in it for you, the consumer? Absolutely nothing.
- taneq 8y ago
  What? Security cameras are there to provide evidence of shoplifting, not to protect the customers from assault.
morpheuskafka 8y ago
This. It's literally a store--of course there is going to be advertising. That's why it's free to walk in the door, because you are there to either buy or be sold something.
- trophycase 8y ago
  Yeah! I mean, They are trying to make money so anything is justifiable right?
- perl4ever 8y ago
  The problem is that the commitment represented by walking in the door can be exploited. Traditionally, societal mores prevented that on the assumption that being decent to customers allowed repeat business. Imagine if you have prices which seem reasonable, but there is an eye tracker which doubles the price on anything you are looking at. In olden days, you would kind of have that situation with a shopkeeper and no price labels, but then you would get to haggle. Now, you can't argue with it.
chrismeller 8y ago
Whether or not a retail chain is doing it now doesn't really matter. Stop assuming that the "security camera" is in any way there to protect you. Yes, maybe that's one of its functions, but HD video is HD video and they could very easily be using that same video feed for any number of other things, all while you smile and ignore the ubiquitous black domes. Let's not forget that casinos have been doing everything everyone is paranoid about in this thread for decades, and not just with cameras. Players cards, RFID chips, facial recognition, relationship databases... Have you ever seen a sign saying "hey, this camera uses facial recognition to track your path between blackjack, the bathroom, and the craps table"? Of course not, they all look exactly like the security cameras everywhere else.
NikkiA 8y ago
Because This: https://youtu.be/YJg02ivYzSs?t=125 https://youtu.be/YJg02ivYzSs?t=125 Is what it'll be like 10 years from now.

spectramax 8y ago

The whole advertisement industry and everything related to it is rotten. Why is today's marketing so filled with vile psychological tricks, creepy things like these coolers, always on mics, analytics about EVERYTHING, store smells and "branding, profiling and recommendation engines...I could go on and on about how advertisement is infuriating today. In old days, you might see ads in a magazine or a newspaper in the same way we see ads on Google, but they didn't have the kind of people coming up with insanely creepy ideas like today. I don't want to hang out with these folks. Who are these people? It is infuriating. Are there any sane alternatives to advertisement today? I don't want banners and flashing ads. Is there a model of advertisement which is "pull" instead of "push"? Kind of like trade shows but for the internet? I LOVE going to trade shows. There is so much value as an industrial consumer (I am an engineer) in attending trade shows - they provide real life demonstrations, new technology, latest methods and processes, face-to-face with people and I honestly don't mind people scanning my badges because there is consent.

hedora 8y ago
Display ads are the sane alternative you are asking for. Imagine the article had an ad for a privacy-respecting inventory prediction and optimization tool for grocers, and maybe a second ad for an ad blocker. That’d be totally cool from a privacy perspective (no tracking), and the ad purchasers would be paying a premium (prime real estate) to the site (actual content producers). However, it is harder to scale, I guess.
exodust 8y ago
Here in Australia they recently installed video advertising screens at many city tram stops in Melbourne. They are portrait-orientated 6 feet tall screens installed in the tram shelter wall where people stand and lean. The problem is on hot days these displays heat up. The fans inside start spinning fast and noisy. Hot air is blown out the bottom, right at people standing waiting for the tram, and the whole display is too hot and noisy to lean against or stand near. Consumers and the general public are always the last to benefit from "modern" advertising technology. It's always someone else who benefits, never the general public, who must cop noisy hot, overly bright video displays, or creepy surveillance so that someone makes more money selling those spaces. It's how the modern world is at the moment.

whoisjuan 8y ago

For anyone wondering, this is how they look: https://i.vimeocdn.com/video/737135814.webp?mw=1000&mh=562&q=70 https://i.vimeocdn.com/video/737135814.webp?mw=1000&mh=562&q...

Adamantcheese 8y ago
It lacks any sort of depth and it doesn't look like there's any product in stock honestly. I think it needs more work before it'll be a product people want, and even then, what's the market? I don't think retailers stocking junk food are going to be swapping out their doors for these at all. It's just not worth the investment, more than likely.
exodust 8y ago
And if your browser doesn't like the Google Chrome-only webp image format... https://i.vimeocdn.com/video/737135814.webp.png https://i.vimeocdn.com/video/737135814.webp.png
- zamazingo 8y ago
  OP link worked in Firefox mobile
- wil421 8y ago
  Thanks. First link didn’t work on safari in iOS.
- gglitch 8y ago
  It's amazing that the blurry interstitial text visible between two shelves reads, "We'll help protect you." How did that get past the Orwell filter?

technobabble 8y ago

If anybody wants to see them in person, they are being tested in the Chicago Walgreens on Michigan ave. by the Chicago theater.

glup 8y ago
Anyone who wants to be seen by them in person can go to the same location.
- mastrsushi 8y ago
  The store has cctv's, so you're going to be captured regardless.

Simulacra 8y ago

Related for those that want to learn more about how retail establishments track you: "No Place to Hide" by Robert O'Harrow Jr. Details the marketing and retail industry's use of camera, AI, and customer tracking. The really scary part is that it was written in 2004.

sphinxpy 8y ago
Thanks for the recommendation. As for the year it doesn't shock me in certain aspects. The camera data in the early 2000's is something I didn't consider though. I notice many people don't know or think that corporations use customer cards for more than a discount. I worked for one of the largest retailers in the U.S. and learned how far the "Plus" card data really goes. All of that data is sold as very in detailed profiles of customers to brokers who sell the data to other corporations and institutions. I worked for them for 10 years and watched it evolve from data harvesting through rewards cards to utilizing the checkout as an avenue of further data collection through facial recognition cameras and even heat sensors throughout the store building heat maps of customer flow. I am not sure exactly about the heat map data being sold or not, however, I am sure some broker could find a market for it but I do know the checkout camera data was sold. The company started utilizing the card system in the 90's and its checkout camera with heat mapping in the early 2010's. Personally, I never used a customer card with my name or address just to maintain some privacy level.
- propogandist 8y ago
  There's an increasing amount of companies that are unfortunately using credit cards to track consumers. The only reliable option to 'opt-out' of tracking these days seems to be paying with cash. I'm interested in hearing more about the point of sale tracking and facial recognition though. Was face recognition just being used to track customers around the store through to checkout? Or are you suggesting that 'face id' data was captured and shared alongside purchasing activity, tied to the individual to a 3rd party??
  - sphinxpy 8y ago
    At the time I left, which was 4 years ago roughly, the facial recognition was used at the checkout area only. The perational area going from the beginning of the gondolas (aisles) that are where you might say the back of a line would be, all the way to the exit doors. This covered a large area but the only area using this at the time. The face ID system worked with the thermal mapping, which was used throughout the store, to create a projected customer volume for the front end management to prepare for. For instance the system tells the team that they have 1 register open but need 3 open now and 5 in 1 hour. The data from the facial recognition cameras was sold, this I know for certain, however, I do not know to what amount that data was put into the specific customer profile being built. My honest impression is it was being sold in a package with card profiles to make a better product for brokers. I've gone through meetings of how much this company wants to track you, how granular the specific customer profile was before the face & heat map system and the companies drive to find a place in the newer data markets that its competition was dealing in, in order to stay in business.

mastrsushi 8y ago

I think we are mistaking creepy for analytical visual profiling and database management. The idea of physical customers being captured as users with records of personal sales trends based on demographics, social behavior, and appearance is interesting. Ads will exist whether we like it it not. If tracking software can at least make these annoying ads more accurate, why not? Not to mention, the survelliance will reduce shop lifting and provide more details to authorities by pinpointing suspects.

taneq 8y ago
The focus on "advertising" in all of these discussions is misleading. It's not about ads. It's about creating an information asymmetry in the market in order to exploit people. The market is a hidden-information game. If you know that I need the medicine or I'll die, you can charge me every cent I own for it and I have to pay. If I know that you need to sell to make your monthly repayments, I know I can lowball you. The party with the most information is at an advantage. And invading peoples' privacy puts them at a commercial disadvantage.
- mastrsushi 8y ago
  We all read about Martin Shkreli, but this is about convenient store products. The worst case being Plan B pills, which I don't see being any more exploited than their current outrageous $50 value.
  - perl4ever 8y ago
    Once you have entered a grocery or convenience store, you are fairly committed. That is, if you notice something is priced outrageously, you could conceivably get mad enough to walk out, but an awful lot of things could have their price doubled and you would still buy it if it is what you came for specifically and you aren't paying attention. Even if you are paying attention, it costs money and time to drive elsewhere. If someone knows that you are thirsty and only came in for a cold drink, they could increase its price. If someone knows you are late for something, they can probably increase the price of what you need to buy even more. People vastly underestimate the manipulative power of information.

mathgeek 8y ago

> Depending on the jurisdiction, the software may process facial images of consumers in real-time ... Perfect example of how there will always be a company that will do whatever they want as long as local laws don't prohibit it.

OldHand2018 8y ago
> do whatever they want as long as local laws don't prohibit it Both Walgreens and the company making the technology are based in a place where this is illegal.

akamoonknight 8y ago

I see something similar to this in the testing done for self driving cars. There's a lot of cars driving around that have a lot of sensors, sometimes on my 15 minute drive I see 5 or more. I'm sure that these cars are tracking information about the cars they drive past and have enough resolution to uniquely identify drivers. The fact they all share information with each and can aggregate that into a cohesive picture feels like an extreme invasion of privacy, even though I'm theoretically driving around in the public domain. Now, I still use Google maps to navigate around, so they know my location anyways, but I guess my fear is that more and more, even if you were able to totally 'disconnect', there's still no way to keep yourself private. This has probably always strictly been the case, my movements could always theoretically be tracked, but the capabilities are just becoming more and more clear to me. It really feels to me like the line between public and private needs to be re-evaluated, and even though life will go on anyways, the future worries me quite a bit.

huffmsa 8y ago

> We do not save the videos or images beyond this processing. So they're just going to magically improve their models with zero real-world data? I can hear the noses growing.

everdrive 8y ago
I assumed they were playing the old Facebook trick. "We don't save the images, just the data model that our computer builds from the images, so it's totally ok."
- huffmsa 8y ago
  Going back and re-reading the excerpt that does appear to be what they're doing.

blue4 8y ago

Walgreens probably still does those late night stickers for price changes, if anything needs to be digitized it would be that. For the benefit of the employees that have to do that painful mess of a price change constantly. Next time you visit a Walgreens or similar store and see tags everywhere just consider how much waste there is to do that every week, sometimes with the same prices just a new colored sticker.

heywire 8y ago
We've had digitized (eInk, LCD) price tags for well over a decade now. They just haven't seemed to take off anywhere except for Kohls (at least in my area).
- cr0sh 8y ago
  I noted in an earlier comment that I recently saw virtually complete usage of e-ink price tags at Best Buy (some fairly large - like tablet display size). But Kohls is where I first encountered them in the wild - they seem to be one of the earlier adopters.

tomatotomato37 8y ago

Honestly my biggest frustration with this is how much a complete waste of resources this is. The same practical effect could be achieved by installing the trackers/whatever on the outskirts of a standard door, replacing the price labels with 7 segments LEDs, and beefing up the glass insulation a bit; instead we are slapping a giant custom screen that has to be powered 24/7 over the mess that's probably going to end up more fragile than the average phone and uses more rare-earth's than the tesla parked outside.

cr0sh 8y ago
> replacing the price labels with 7 segments LEDs I recently went into a local Best Buy location after not having stepped inside one in about 10 years... ...aside from being impressed at how low the price was for a Samsung 85" QLED 4K television (about $3k USD - dirt cheap IMHO) - I was more intrigued by the price labels on the racks and such. It was something I only noticed after being there for 30 minutes or so, which either shows my age, lack of awareness, or something like that - or it shows just how things now blend in. All of the labels were some kind of "e-ink" based wireless tagging system. They had fooled me for a good while that they were the old-style paper labels that BB used to use, stuck in slip-case transparent windows on or near the merchandise. To my eyes, they were almost flawless. Looking closer, I could see certain issues that (besides the fact of the electronic frame they were in - which was really thin and subtle) revealed their true nature: Missing pixels, jaggies (like a bad fax), etc. Best Buy used to be "the place" I went for electronics, when they first came to the Phoenix area (early 90s). I helped to establish my credit using their in-store credit card system. But that recent experience of visiting them left a bad taste in my mouth. It wasn't the price labels, or even really their prices (which really weren't too outlandish) - it was just the whole feel of the place. Something seemed off about it, like it was trying to be something that just wasn't "it" any longer. Kinda like how K-Mart felt when places like Target and Walmart became "big" (I find both of those places, though, to feel similar to BB as well). The only thing I can attribute this to is how easy it has become to shop online for stuff, and the fact that I do most of my shopping online period. The only stuff I don't shop online for has been groceries and other food items. I expect that to change in the future, though. My only other shopping experiences - and the ones I enjoy - have been at what can only be described as "second-hand marketplaces" - used book stores, surplus electronics outlets, junkyards, hamfests, etc. Strangely, I prefer "shopping" at these places more than the general "commercial" outlets. For some reason, they are more comfortable to shop at/with - they feel less sanitized and more personal to me...