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You're essentially advocating for tariffs and "buy local" requirements. Not only they are bad for the economy, they're also mostly illegal in the EU. > If I w

You're essentially advocating for tariffs and "buy local" requirements. Not only they are bad for the economy, they're also mostly illegal in the EU. > If I were French and our rolling stock were competitive Well, it just wasn't as competitive as the German one.

mc32 8y ago
It’s from your taxes (unless the Germans are donating from their coffers), so yeah you should have a local preference if it’s competitive (near as good or better). It adds to local economy and also staves off monopolization of producers.
- ucaetano 8y ago
  Nope, it is anti-competitive and bad for the economy, as it creates trade barriers and stifles innovation, as well as using your taxes badly. It essentially accounts to government subsidies for a certain company. And that's why it is illegal in the EU.
  - mc32 8y ago
    So you’re saying a state like Venezuela should always keep being a raw materials exporter and an importer of goods with added value because jumpstarting or maintaining an industry is bad for global free trade?
    - ucaetano 8y ago
      What does Venezuela has to do with the EU?
      - mc32 8y ago
        Economics basics. Support your own industry to maintain a viable industry. Why should India or Australia buy French rolling stock if they themselves won’t deploy it? At that point, close shop.
        ucaetano 8y ago
        > Economics basics Sorry, but it is clear that you don't understand the very basics of economics...
        barry-cotter 8y ago
        Argentina supported its domestic auto industry for over 30 years and succeeded in nothing but wasting a ton of money and inconveniencing everyone who wanted a decent car. Import substitution is a great way to pay off your political allies but it’s terroble for all the people who have to pay higher prices for lower quality goods as a result. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Import_substitution_industrialization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Import_substitution_industrial...
      - TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
        I’ve seen photos of Earth from space; I didn’t see any borders. The EU is an arbitrary distinction.
        ucaetano 8y ago
        Cool story. Irrelevant, but a cool story.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
    If we take this to it’s logical extreme we can see how absurd it is. Why stop at the EU? If Tau Cetians can produce trains cheap we ought to buy trains from Tau Ceti. Never mind that it puts the locals out of a job, diminishes local pride in locally manufactured goods, and what do the Tau Cetians care if the trains are unreliable and in comfortable. Economics doesn’t occur in a vacuum, and it doesn’t matter if my opinion is economically factually incorrect: the National morale does matter. But, if you hold competition above all else, then we have an ideological mismatch, and no amount of fact or opinion sharing is likely to help.
    - ucaetano 8y ago
      > it doesn’t matter if my opinion is economically factually incorrect: the National morale does matter. I don't even know how to reply to that. Not only you're completely wrong, but you're a nationalist who would sink your country for "national pride". Kinda like North Korea.
      - TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
        Is there something fundamentally problematic with me want a say in how my tax dollars are spent, and that I would rather the majority go to my fellow citizens so that I have to support fewer of them with welfare?
        ucaetano 8y ago
        No, you can want it as much as you want. Won't make it good, but you're still free to want.
      - TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
        What about China? Do you see China buying German trains?
        ucaetano 8y ago
        Actually, yes, the Velaro was exported to China, then built there too.
  - oh_sigh 8y ago
    Bad for the EU economy, but not necessarily bad for the French economy, which is what the French government should primarily be concerned with. If a German train costs 100 units, and an equivalent French train costs 110 units, but buying the French train gives 40 units to your neighbors and coworkers, why shouldn't the French government buy the French train?
    - em500 8y ago
      They would. Then the German government would do the same for Siemens trains. Then the only thing both sides have gained are more expensive trains. That's why EU rules forbid this.
- ousta 8y ago
  I will explain something to above comment: if you re the only one putting this rule. you are the looser. welcome to europe.
realusername 8y ago
> Not only they are bad for the economy, they're also mostly illegal in the EU. I wish we would stop with this meme, you should ask what they think in the UK of their private trains, I would prefer to keep the French train monopoly, at least it's cheap and it works.
- ucaetano 8y ago
  > I would prefer to keep the French train monopoly, at least it's cheap and it works. Sure you might prefer, but your personal preference doesn't change the fact that protectionism is bad in the long term, and illegal in the EU.
  - realusername 8y ago
    > the fact that protectionism is bad in the long term It all depends, some industries are just not working privately, the privatization of electricity in France was also a failure for example. The privatization of the post system was also a failure but it matters less since the postal system is less important nowadays. For the trains, the core issue here is that the network has a value has a whole, if you start to remove the unprofitable parts, it reduces the value of it as a whole. It would be like having only highways, it would not be useful even if it's where you have the most traffic. > and illegal in the EU. Well, then you understand why some people become anti-EU when their public service fails and politicians tell them it's perfectly normal and because of some EU policy.
    - ucaetano 8y ago
      > It all depends, some industries are just not working privately, the privatization of electricity in France was also a failure for example. The privatization of the post system was also a failure but it matters less since the postal system is less important nowadays. That doesn't have anything to do with protectionism. Are you confusing protectionism with state-owned companies? > For the trains, the core issue here is that the network has a value has a whole I'm talking about train sets, not rail networks. Rail networks in the EU are becoming open as well (which is the point of the article, in case you didn't read it), so SNCF is having, due to competition, to buy more efficient train sets to be able to compete with potential new entrants. Which is good for society.

mc32 8y ago

It’s from your taxes (unless the Germans are donating from their coffers), so yeah you should have a local preference if it’s competitive (near as good or better). It adds to local economy and also staves off monopolization of producers.

ucaetano 8y ago
Nope, it is anti-competitive and bad for the economy, as it creates trade barriers and stifles innovation, as well as using your taxes badly. It essentially accounts to government subsidies for a certain company. And that's why it is illegal in the EU.
- mc32 8y ago
  So you’re saying a state like Venezuela should always keep being a raw materials exporter and an importer of goods with added value because jumpstarting or maintaining an industry is bad for global free trade?
  - ucaetano 8y ago
    What does Venezuela has to do with the EU?
    - mc32 8y ago
      Economics basics. Support your own industry to maintain a viable industry. Why should India or Australia buy French rolling stock if they themselves won’t deploy it? At that point, close shop.
      - ucaetano 8y ago
        > Economics basics Sorry, but it is clear that you don't understand the very basics of economics...
      - barry-cotter 8y ago
        Argentina supported its domestic auto industry for over 30 years and succeeded in nothing but wasting a ton of money and inconveniencing everyone who wanted a decent car. Import substitution is a great way to pay off your political allies but it’s terroble for all the people who have to pay higher prices for lower quality goods as a result. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Import_substitution_industrialization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Import_substitution_industrial...
    - TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
      I’ve seen photos of Earth from space; I didn’t see any borders. The EU is an arbitrary distinction.
      - ucaetano 8y ago
        Cool story. Irrelevant, but a cool story.
- TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
  If we take this to it’s logical extreme we can see how absurd it is. Why stop at the EU? If Tau Cetians can produce trains cheap we ought to buy trains from Tau Ceti. Never mind that it puts the locals out of a job, diminishes local pride in locally manufactured goods, and what do the Tau Cetians care if the trains are unreliable and in comfortable. Economics doesn’t occur in a vacuum, and it doesn’t matter if my opinion is economically factually incorrect: the National morale does matter. But, if you hold competition above all else, then we have an ideological mismatch, and no amount of fact or opinion sharing is likely to help.
  - ucaetano 8y ago
    > it doesn’t matter if my opinion is economically factually incorrect: the National morale does matter. I don't even know how to reply to that. Not only you're completely wrong, but you're a nationalist who would sink your country for "national pride". Kinda like North Korea.
    - TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
      Is there something fundamentally problematic with me want a say in how my tax dollars are spent, and that I would rather the majority go to my fellow citizens so that I have to support fewer of them with welfare?
      - ucaetano 8y ago
        No, you can want it as much as you want. Won't make it good, but you're still free to want.
    - TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
      What about China? Do you see China buying German trains?
      - ucaetano 8y ago
        Actually, yes, the Velaro was exported to China, then built there too.
- oh_sigh 8y ago
  Bad for the EU economy, but not necessarily bad for the French economy, which is what the French government should primarily be concerned with. If a German train costs 100 units, and an equivalent French train costs 110 units, but buying the French train gives 40 units to your neighbors and coworkers, why shouldn't the French government buy the French train?
  - em500 8y ago
    They would. Then the German government would do the same for Siemens trains. Then the only thing both sides have gained are more expensive trains. That's why EU rules forbid this.
ousta 8y ago
I will explain something to above comment: if you re the only one putting this rule. you are the looser. welcome to europe.

realusername 8y ago

> Not only they are bad for the economy, they're also mostly illegal in the EU. I wish we would stop with this meme, you should ask what they think in the UK of their private trains, I would prefer to keep the French train monopoly, at least it's cheap and it works.

ucaetano 8y ago
> I would prefer to keep the French train monopoly, at least it's cheap and it works. Sure you might prefer, but your personal preference doesn't change the fact that protectionism is bad in the long term, and illegal in the EU.
- realusername 8y ago
  > the fact that protectionism is bad in the long term It all depends, some industries are just not working privately, the privatization of electricity in France was also a failure for example. The privatization of the post system was also a failure but it matters less since the postal system is less important nowadays. For the trains, the core issue here is that the network has a value has a whole, if you start to remove the unprofitable parts, it reduces the value of it as a whole. It would be like having only highways, it would not be useful even if it's where you have the most traffic. > and illegal in the EU. Well, then you understand why some people become anti-EU when their public service fails and politicians tell them it's perfectly normal and because of some EU policy.
  - ucaetano 8y ago
    > It all depends, some industries are just not working privately, the privatization of electricity in France was also a failure for example. The privatization of the post system was also a failure but it matters less since the postal system is less important nowadays. That doesn't have anything to do with protectionism. Are you confusing protectionism with state-owned companies? > For the trains, the core issue here is that the network has a value has a whole I'm talking about train sets, not rail networks. Rail networks in the EU are becoming open as well (which is the point of the article, in case you didn't read it), so SNCF is having, due to competition, to buy more efficient train sets to be able to compete with potential new entrants. Which is good for society.