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Worth remembering that France hasn't fared very well in rail competition lately: the French-Government-controlled Eurostar chose the Velaro train sets from Germ

Worth remembering that France hasn't fared very well in rail competition lately: the French-Government-controlled Eurostar chose the Velaro train sets from German Siemens to replace the existing TGV-derived train sets. It sparked a national outrage (because a company controlled by the French government should, in their opinion, only buy French) and a lawsuit from Alston (who makes the TGV).

mc32 8y ago
If I were French and our rolling stock were competitive, I’d be upset if the government gave a leg up to the competition given the strong unions and jobs the TGV provides. It may save a buck or two but it also is a blow against local producers.
- ucaetano 8y ago
  You're essentially advocating for tariffs and "buy local" requirements. Not only they are bad for the economy, they're also mostly illegal in the EU. > If I were French and our rolling stock were competitive Well, it just wasn't as competitive as the German one.
  - mc32 8y ago
    It’s from your taxes (unless the Germans are donating from their coffers), so yeah you should have a local preference if it’s competitive (near as good or better). It adds to local economy and also staves off monopolization of producers.
    - ucaetano 8y ago
      Nope, it is anti-competitive and bad for the economy, as it creates trade barriers and stifles innovation, as well as using your taxes badly. It essentially accounts to government subsidies for a certain company. And that's why it is illegal in the EU.
      - mc32 8y ago
        So you’re saying a state like Venezuela should always keep being a raw materials exporter and an importer of goods with added value because jumpstarting or maintaining an industry is bad for global free trade?
        ucaetano 8y ago
        What does Venezuela has to do with the EU?
        mc32 8y ago
        Economics basics. Support your own industry to maintain a viable industry. Why should India or Australia buy French rolling stock if they themselves won’t deploy it? At that point, close shop.
        ucaetano 8y ago
        > Economics basics Sorry, but it is clear that you don't understand the very basics of economics...
        barry-cotter 8y ago
        Argentina supported its domestic auto industry for over 30 years and succeeded in nothing but wasting a ton of money and inconveniencing everyone who wanted a decent car. Import substitution is a great way to pay off your political allies but it’s terroble for all the people who have to pay higher prices for lower quality goods as a result. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Import_substitution_industrialization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Import_substitution_industrial...
        TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
        I’ve seen photos of Earth from space; I didn’t see any borders. The EU is an arbitrary distinction.
        8y ago
    - ousta 8y ago
      I will explain something to above comment: if you re the only one putting this rule. you are the looser. welcome to europe.
  - realusername 8y ago
    > Not only they are bad for the economy, they're also mostly illegal in the EU. I wish we would stop with this meme, you should ask what they think in the UK of their private trains, I would prefer to keep the French train monopoly, at least it's cheap and it works.
    - ucaetano 8y ago
      > I would prefer to keep the French train monopoly, at least it's cheap and it works. Sure you might prefer, but your personal preference doesn't change the fact that protectionism is bad in the long term, and illegal in the EU.
      - realusername 8y ago
        > the fact that protectionism is bad in the long term It all depends, some industries are just not working privately, the privatization of electricity in France was also a failure for example. The privatization of the post system was also a failure but it matters less since the postal system is less important nowadays. For the trains, the core issue here is that the network has a value has a whole, if you start to remove the unprofitable parts, it reduces the value of it as a whole. It would be like having only highways, it would not be useful even if it's where you have the most traffic. > and illegal in the EU. Well, then you understand why some people become anti-EU when their public service fails and politicians tell them it's perfectly normal and because of some EU policy.
        ucaetano 8y ago
        > It all depends, some industries are just not working privately, the privatization of electricity in France was also a failure for example. The privatization of the post system was also a failure but it matters less since the postal system is less important nowadays. That doesn't have anything to do with protectionism. Are you confusing protectionism with state-owned companies? > For the trains, the core issue here is that the network has a value has a whole I'm talking about train sets, not rail networks. Rail networks in the EU are becoming open as well (which is the point of the article, in case you didn't read it), so SNCF is having, due to competition, to buy more efficient train sets to be able to compete with potential new entrants. Which is good for society.
- jdietrich 8y ago
  EU competition rules prohibit preferential treatment of domestic businesses in state procurement - any public contract worth more than €5.5m must be open to fair competition from firms in all EU member states. Alongside the State Aid rules, this is one of the most important principles in maintaining the fair operation of the Single Market and preventing internal protectionism. https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/selling-in-eu/public-contracts/rules-procedures/index_en.htm https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/selling-in-eu/public-c... http://ec.europa.eu/competition/state_aid/overview/index_en.html http://ec.europa.eu/competition/state_aid/overview/index_en....
  - dingaling 8y ago
    > and preventing internal protectionism Which is the key phrase. The EU is perfectly fine with protectionism so long as it is non-EU countries who are being excluded. For example, the cap of foreign ownership of EU airlines at 49% has no basis other than protecting local companies.
    - falsedan 8y ago
      good
entity345 8y ago
"lately"? You are reporting something that was announced in 2010. It should now be put into the context of the French and German governments' wish to merge Alstom with Siemens. 'Lately' (2018), Alstom signed a deal to sell TGVs to Morocco.
- ucaetano 8y ago
  In the railroad world, 10 years ago is lately. Different industries run on different timescales, you know...
mcv 8y ago
Eurostar trains are less comfortable than TGV trains, though.
- ucaetano 8y ago
  Eurostar trains include both TGV and Siemens Velaro rolling stock.
  - mcv 8y ago
    Do they? Well, in any case the seats of the train we were in were more cramped than I'm used to from any kind of train, including what I remember from TGV and ICE trains, though I admit I haven't experienced those as recently as the Thalys. Is it possible they crammed more seats into the same carriages?
    - ucaetano 8y ago
      > Do they? Yes, they do. The old Eurostars (e300) are the Alstom TGV TMST, and the new ones (e320) are the Siemens Velaro. The e320 have an interior configuration very similar to the ICE-3s in Germany, although I believe that the seat pitch in the Eurostar is shorter than in the ICE. The same is true for the e300s: they have the same disgusting, sweat-infused seats of the TGVs :)

mc32 8y ago

If I were French and our rolling stock were competitive, I’d be upset if the government gave a leg up to the competition given the strong unions and jobs the TGV provides. It may save a buck or two but it also is a blow against local producers.

ucaetano 8y ago
You're essentially advocating for tariffs and "buy local" requirements. Not only they are bad for the economy, they're also mostly illegal in the EU. > If I were French and our rolling stock were competitive Well, it just wasn't as competitive as the German one.
- mc32 8y ago
  It’s from your taxes (unless the Germans are donating from their coffers), so yeah you should have a local preference if it’s competitive (near as good or better). It adds to local economy and also staves off monopolization of producers.
  - ucaetano 8y ago
    Nope, it is anti-competitive and bad for the economy, as it creates trade barriers and stifles innovation, as well as using your taxes badly. It essentially accounts to government subsidies for a certain company. And that's why it is illegal in the EU.
    - mc32 8y ago
      So you’re saying a state like Venezuela should always keep being a raw materials exporter and an importer of goods with added value because jumpstarting or maintaining an industry is bad for global free trade?
      - ucaetano 8y ago
        What does Venezuela has to do with the EU?
        mc32 8y ago
        Economics basics. Support your own industry to maintain a viable industry. Why should India or Australia buy French rolling stock if they themselves won’t deploy it? At that point, close shop.
        ucaetano 8y ago
        > Economics basics Sorry, but it is clear that you don't understand the very basics of economics...
        barry-cotter 8y ago
        Argentina supported its domestic auto industry for over 30 years and succeeded in nothing but wasting a ton of money and inconveniencing everyone who wanted a decent car. Import substitution is a great way to pay off your political allies but it’s terroble for all the people who have to pay higher prices for lower quality goods as a result. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Import_substitution_industrialization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Import_substitution_industrial...
        TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
        I’ve seen photos of Earth from space; I didn’t see any borders. The EU is an arbitrary distinction.
        8y ago
  - ousta 8y ago
    I will explain something to above comment: if you re the only one putting this rule. you are the looser. welcome to europe.
- realusername 8y ago
  > Not only they are bad for the economy, they're also mostly illegal in the EU. I wish we would stop with this meme, you should ask what they think in the UK of their private trains, I would prefer to keep the French train monopoly, at least it's cheap and it works.
  - ucaetano 8y ago
    > I would prefer to keep the French train monopoly, at least it's cheap and it works. Sure you might prefer, but your personal preference doesn't change the fact that protectionism is bad in the long term, and illegal in the EU.
    - realusername 8y ago
      > the fact that protectionism is bad in the long term It all depends, some industries are just not working privately, the privatization of electricity in France was also a failure for example. The privatization of the post system was also a failure but it matters less since the postal system is less important nowadays. For the trains, the core issue here is that the network has a value has a whole, if you start to remove the unprofitable parts, it reduces the value of it as a whole. It would be like having only highways, it would not be useful even if it's where you have the most traffic. > and illegal in the EU. Well, then you understand why some people become anti-EU when their public service fails and politicians tell them it's perfectly normal and because of some EU policy.
      - ucaetano 8y ago
        > It all depends, some industries are just not working privately, the privatization of electricity in France was also a failure for example. The privatization of the post system was also a failure but it matters less since the postal system is less important nowadays. That doesn't have anything to do with protectionism. Are you confusing protectionism with state-owned companies? > For the trains, the core issue here is that the network has a value has a whole I'm talking about train sets, not rail networks. Rail networks in the EU are becoming open as well (which is the point of the article, in case you didn't read it), so SNCF is having, due to competition, to buy more efficient train sets to be able to compete with potential new entrants. Which is good for society.
jdietrich 8y ago
EU competition rules prohibit preferential treatment of domestic businesses in state procurement - any public contract worth more than €5.5m must be open to fair competition from firms in all EU member states. Alongside the State Aid rules, this is one of the most important principles in maintaining the fair operation of the Single Market and preventing internal protectionism. https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/selling-in-eu/public-contracts/rules-procedures/index_en.htm https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/selling-in-eu/public-c... http://ec.europa.eu/competition/state_aid/overview/index_en.html http://ec.europa.eu/competition/state_aid/overview/index_en....
- dingaling 8y ago
  > and preventing internal protectionism Which is the key phrase. The EU is perfectly fine with protectionism so long as it is non-EU countries who are being excluded. For example, the cap of foreign ownership of EU airlines at 49% has no basis other than protecting local companies.
  - falsedan 8y ago
    good

entity345 8y ago

"lately"? You are reporting something that was announced in 2010. It should now be put into the context of the French and German governments' wish to merge Alstom with Siemens. 'Lately' (2018), Alstom signed a deal to sell TGVs to Morocco.

ucaetano 8y ago
In the railroad world, 10 years ago is lately. Different industries run on different timescales, you know...

mcv 8y ago

Eurostar trains are less comfortable than TGV trains, though.

ucaetano 8y ago
Eurostar trains include both TGV and Siemens Velaro rolling stock.
- mcv 8y ago
  Do they? Well, in any case the seats of the train we were in were more cramped than I'm used to from any kind of train, including what I remember from TGV and ICE trains, though I admit I haven't experienced those as recently as the Thalys. Is it possible they crammed more seats into the same carriages?
  - ucaetano 8y ago
    > Do they? Yes, they do. The old Eurostars (e300) are the Alstom TGV TMST, and the new ones (e320) are the Siemens Velaro. The e320 have an interior configuration very similar to the ICE-3s in Germany, although I believe that the seat pitch in the Eurostar is shorter than in the ICE. The same is true for the e300s: they have the same disgusting, sweat-infused seats of the TGVs :)