5 ms·

Pakistan says it has shot down two Indian military jets and captured a pilot

38 points by sky_nox 8y ago

ishjoh 8y ago
I've been following this story and it makes me very nervous that these skirmishes are getting more serious. I'm in the US so I don't have a good sense of how the citizens of the two countries are reacting to the conflict. Does anybody in India or Pakistan want to share the situation on the ground? How loudly are the the war drums banging? How are the media framing these events?
- nsenifty 8y ago
  Both Indian and Pakistani media are peddling irresponsible lies and half-truths. It's been really hard to separate the truth from the noise.
  - pknerd 8y ago
    Not really. You may check Pakistani media via Youtube and others. As far as Pakistanis, we are not getting into such hysteria either. We are more busy in making memes and watching PSL.
- pkd 8y ago
  The mainstream media (some TV news channels, especially) have been warmongering quite hard in India. I assume it's the same in Pakistan.
  - ishjoh 8y ago
    I remember the lead up to invading Iraq, what was incredible is that all the major media companies agreed that it had to be done. Whether it was CNN, Fox, etc, it didn't matter, they were all saying that we had to invade. There were almost no dissenting opinions, now I'm always very weary when media on the right and the left agree on things, it typically means it's not in the interest of the citizens.
  - pknerd 8y ago
    > I assume it's the same in Pakistan. Not really. You may check Pakistani media via Youtube and others. As far as Pakistanis, we are not getting into such hysteria either. We are more busy in making memes and watching PSL.
- godelmachine 8y ago
  I am an Indian and until yesterday, I wholeheartedly supported the strikes by us on Pakistan mainland. Please note that the strikes were to dismantle the terrorist infrastructure with surgical precision. Pakistan took offense to this and have retaliated. During this retaliation, they caught one of our fighter pilots behind their lines. This happened when 2 MiG 21's from India engaged a dozen F16's coming from Pakistan. (Not sure about all 12 of them being F16's. There were 12 for sure. Some reports say 4 F16's , 4 JF7 Thunder and 4 Chengdu J-7) Since then, I want the pilot to be brought back home and want retaliation to take a back burner. Pakistani's too support going on the offensive.
  - ishjoh 8y ago
    Thank you for commenting.
  - dogma1138 8y ago
    India has nearly 250 SU-30’s which at least they have a chance who in the world would’ve ordered Mig 21’s to scramble against western jets after seeing how Soviet and Arab pilots faired in them against the Israelis in Mirages, F4s and F15/16s between 1967 and 1981?
    - godelmachine 8y ago
      If you know anything about CAP https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_air_patrol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_air_patrol , the fighter aircraft which is closest to the intruders responds. In our case, it happened to be MiG 21. Had it been Sukhoi-30, we would had shot down at least half a dozen of them.
      - dogma1138 8y ago
        I think you over estimating what the SU-30 can do; it stands a better chance but what you are describing is unlikely given the armament of the F16s. The question is still why are the MiG 21s even operating in a contested environment when the opposition is much better armed when there is a better alternative.
- mhq 8y ago
  War drums are banging too loud in India. Their media/social media/celebrities/politicians every one is creating war hysteria. In Pakistan, everyone is asking for peace and only peace. Don't go for my words, check twitter/facebook/youtube yourself and find out.
mgolawala 8y ago
Having two nuclear powers shooting each other's planes out of the sky should make the whole world nervous. In a perverse way, it is probably a good thing that they are both nuclear powers. The stakes are too high for them NOT to call a truce and end this madness before it gets out of hand. It seems like most remain hopeful that both sides will stand down after a couple of rounds of chest beating. Knowing humanity, it is only a matter of time though, before two nuclear powers begin an all out war with each other. India and Pakistan are definitely on the top of the list of candidates where such a war could start.
- dogma1138 8y ago
  It’s much worse with India and Pakistan. No centralized command and control, little to no fail safes once the physics package is integrated and warmed up, no second strike capability all of this results in a doctrine of tactical deployments with field commanders holding launch responsibilities. This isn’t the US and Russia where they can obliterate each other conventionally and no one would be able to fire a nuke off unless the leadership calls for it. This could start and end with a field level commander in some valley in Kashmir hitting the button because they can’t get their superiors on the line and some villager claimed they’ve seen a mushroom cloud.
  - amriksohata 8y ago
    No second strike capability? Do you really think either of these countries have no second strike capability? I think you underestimate both sides armies and their command and control.
    - dogma1138 8y ago
      Neither side have centralized command and control, no centralized launch control, both Indian and Pakistani nukes are practically unsafe and neither country has a nuclear triad nor hardened launch capabilities that can survive a first strike, the only 2nd strike any of these countries would get is due to the sheer incompetence of their opponent. What’s worse is that both sides also lack proper early warning systems, reliable IFF, centralized communications, and essentially everything needs to ensure that no one is going to make a huge mistake. India and Pakistan are both a joke sadly for the rest of the world not a particularly funny one, and what will start with them won’t end with them since Russia, China and the US would get dragged into the situation. One of the biggest criticism of the nuclear non proliferation treaty is that it lacks the provision to deal with nations that achieve break out of full nuclear capabilities and allow the nuclear power to provide them with guidance and the tools to actually secure their nuclear arsenal. To put things into perspective China only now is establishing a centralized and fault tolerant command and control infrastructure with continuity of government and military command, both the US and Russia have been constantly miss identifying anything form wild geese to sounding rockets as possible first strike candidates and you if expect India and Pakistan to handle these issues with competency then you might need to reconsider what you define as such.
bobbydreamer 8y ago
It's mostly just media and their TRP
bdz 8y ago
>Mess with the best. Die like a pest! https://twitter.com/zartajgulwazir/status/1100691125277523968/photo/1 https://twitter.com/zartajgulwazir/status/110069112527752396... Crazy that a minister can write something like that. Not really surprised but still.
- mc32 8y ago
  I have to ask, why are the maps labeled using the Latin alphabet?
- mhq 8y ago
  She replied to an Indian celebrity using his words when Pakistan retaliated.
dfilppi 8y ago
Why would they announce that? What strategy is forwarded by announcing it?
- NTDF9 8y ago
  The announcement is done to achieve two things: 1. Posture to their own populace that they're not backing down (thus winning political scores) 2. Show to the rest of the world that they are leadership to reckon with, that they don't back down cowardly. Imagine two high-school teens with some social status fighting on the playground. They will not back off because of social status reasons. Only here, the teens have nukes.
  - pknerd 8y ago
    I am a Pakistani and I do agree with you here. But we have left no choice either. Modi wants to use jingoism to win elections
- godelmachine 8y ago
  To stop cross border terrorism state sponsored by Pakistan and proxy war. We Indian's are fed up of these! Paki's don't let us live in peace.
  - dang 8y ago
    If you continue to do nationalistic flamewar on HN we will ban you. No more of this, please. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- pknerd 8y ago
  Because a day earlier India announced about a fake surgical strike where their pilots dropped payload and killed a few trees and said they killed terrorists
amriksohata 8y ago
India have played a diplomatic masterclass. They can claim non-military action against a terrorist group (that is supported by ex pakistani army men which were probably killed too). 300 in total. Whilst Pakistan took down 1 of Indias armymen and 40 soliders via a terror attack. India also claims to have down a Pakistani jet. Overall India look better on the international stage and have also manned down more numbers. Pakistan really has been useless both at diplomatic and non diplomatic methods.
stunt 8y ago
How any of these stuff is related to HN?
pknerd 8y ago
Indian PM Modi was(is) in trouble. He lost elections massively in 4(?) Indian states. He is also facing Rafael planes scandal in which former French President also revealed a few things about the scandal. Opposition parties like INC and AAP raised voice against Modi's moves to mess within and out of the country. Unlike Pakistan, India has more hysteria for the neighbor and like everywhere else, using religion and Pakistan could help to gain popular votes. The attack by India was very predictable, even Indians[1] said it 5-6 months back. What actually made it worse for Modi that Pakistan responded back and captured their pilot thus made Modi in trouble as the opposition is asking questions. Despite of warmongering Media and politicians, PM of Pakistan again asked for dialogues. Even many sane Indians are appreciating it [2] PS: All of the Info above about India politics is based on Indian newspapers and their politicians' statements. [1] https://twitter.com/ashoswai/status/1072503110118096897?lang=en https://twitter.com/ashoswai/status/1072503110118096897?lang... [2] https://www.facebook.com/hanif.ajari/posts/2606114666071848 https://www.facebook.com/hanif.ajari/posts/2606114666071848

38 points by sky_nox 8y ago

I've been following this story and it makes me very nervous that these skirmishes are getting more serious. I'm in the US so I don't have a good sense of how the citizens of the two countries are reacting to the conflict. Does anybody in India or Pakistan want to share the situation on the ground? How loudly are the the war drums banging? How are the media framing these events?

nsenifty 8y ago
Both Indian and Pakistani media are peddling irresponsible lies and half-truths. It's been really hard to separate the truth from the noise.
- pknerd 8y ago
  Not really. You may check Pakistani media via Youtube and others. As far as Pakistanis, we are not getting into such hysteria either. We are more busy in making memes and watching PSL.
pkd 8y ago
The mainstream media (some TV news channels, especially) have been warmongering quite hard in India. I assume it's the same in Pakistan.
- ishjoh 8y ago
  I remember the lead up to invading Iraq, what was incredible is that all the major media companies agreed that it had to be done. Whether it was CNN, Fox, etc, it didn't matter, they were all saying that we had to invade. There were almost no dissenting opinions, now I'm always very weary when media on the right and the left agree on things, it typically means it's not in the interest of the citizens.
- pknerd 8y ago
  > I assume it's the same in Pakistan. Not really. You may check Pakistani media via Youtube and others. As far as Pakistanis, we are not getting into such hysteria either. We are more busy in making memes and watching PSL.
godelmachine 8y ago
I am an Indian and until yesterday, I wholeheartedly supported the strikes by us on Pakistan mainland. Please note that the strikes were to dismantle the terrorist infrastructure with surgical precision. Pakistan took offense to this and have retaliated. During this retaliation, they caught one of our fighter pilots behind their lines. This happened when 2 MiG 21's from India engaged a dozen F16's coming from Pakistan. (Not sure about all 12 of them being F16's. There were 12 for sure. Some reports say 4 F16's , 4 JF7 Thunder and 4 Chengdu J-7) Since then, I want the pilot to be brought back home and want retaliation to take a back burner. Pakistani's too support going on the offensive.
- ishjoh 8y ago
  Thank you for commenting.
- dogma1138 8y ago
  India has nearly 250 SU-30’s which at least they have a chance who in the world would’ve ordered Mig 21’s to scramble against western jets after seeing how Soviet and Arab pilots faired in them against the Israelis in Mirages, F4s and F15/16s between 1967 and 1981?
  - godelmachine 8y ago
    If you know anything about CAP https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_air_patrol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_air_patrol , the fighter aircraft which is closest to the intruders responds. In our case, it happened to be MiG 21. Had it been Sukhoi-30, we would had shot down at least half a dozen of them.
    - dogma1138 8y ago
      I think you over estimating what the SU-30 can do; it stands a better chance but what you are describing is unlikely given the armament of the F16s. The question is still why are the MiG 21s even operating in a contested environment when the opposition is much better armed when there is a better alternative.
mhq 8y ago
War drums are banging too loud in India. Their media/social media/celebrities/politicians every one is creating war hysteria. In Pakistan, everyone is asking for peace and only peace. Don't go for my words, check twitter/facebook/youtube yourself and find out.

mgolawala 8y ago

Having two nuclear powers shooting each other's planes out of the sky should make the whole world nervous. In a perverse way, it is probably a good thing that they are both nuclear powers. The stakes are too high for them NOT to call a truce and end this madness before it gets out of hand. It seems like most remain hopeful that both sides will stand down after a couple of rounds of chest beating. Knowing humanity, it is only a matter of time though, before two nuclear powers begin an all out war with each other. India and Pakistan are definitely on the top of the list of candidates where such a war could start.

dogma1138 8y ago
It’s much worse with India and Pakistan. No centralized command and control, little to no fail safes once the physics package is integrated and warmed up, no second strike capability all of this results in a doctrine of tactical deployments with field commanders holding launch responsibilities. This isn’t the US and Russia where they can obliterate each other conventionally and no one would be able to fire a nuke off unless the leadership calls for it. This could start and end with a field level commander in some valley in Kashmir hitting the button because they can’t get their superiors on the line and some villager claimed they’ve seen a mushroom cloud.
- amriksohata 8y ago
  No second strike capability? Do you really think either of these countries have no second strike capability? I think you underestimate both sides armies and their command and control.
  - dogma1138 8y ago
    Neither side have centralized command and control, no centralized launch control, both Indian and Pakistani nukes are practically unsafe and neither country has a nuclear triad nor hardened launch capabilities that can survive a first strike, the only 2nd strike any of these countries would get is due to the sheer incompetence of their opponent. What’s worse is that both sides also lack proper early warning systems, reliable IFF, centralized communications, and essentially everything needs to ensure that no one is going to make a huge mistake. India and Pakistan are both a joke sadly for the rest of the world not a particularly funny one, and what will start with them won’t end with them since Russia, China and the US would get dragged into the situation. One of the biggest criticism of the nuclear non proliferation treaty is that it lacks the provision to deal with nations that achieve break out of full nuclear capabilities and allow the nuclear power to provide them with guidance and the tools to actually secure their nuclear arsenal. To put things into perspective China only now is establishing a centralized and fault tolerant command and control infrastructure with continuity of government and military command, both the US and Russia have been constantly miss identifying anything form wild geese to sounding rockets as possible first strike candidates and you if expect India and Pakistan to handle these issues with competency then you might need to reconsider what you define as such.

bobbydreamer 8y ago

It's mostly just media and their TRP

bdz 8y ago

>Mess with the best. Die like a pest! https://twitter.com/zartajgulwazir/status/1100691125277523968/photo/1 https://twitter.com/zartajgulwazir/status/110069112527752396... Crazy that a minister can write something like that. Not really surprised but still.

mc32 8y ago
I have to ask, why are the maps labeled using the Latin alphabet?
mhq 8y ago
She replied to an Indian celebrity using his words when Pakistan retaliated.

dfilppi 8y ago

Why would they announce that? What strategy is forwarded by announcing it?

NTDF9 8y ago
The announcement is done to achieve two things: 1. Posture to their own populace that they're not backing down (thus winning political scores) 2. Show to the rest of the world that they are leadership to reckon with, that they don't back down cowardly. Imagine two high-school teens with some social status fighting on the playground. They will not back off because of social status reasons. Only here, the teens have nukes.
- pknerd 8y ago
  I am a Pakistani and I do agree with you here. But we have left no choice either. Modi wants to use jingoism to win elections
godelmachine 8y ago
To stop cross border terrorism state sponsored by Pakistan and proxy war. We Indian's are fed up of these! Paki's don't let us live in peace.
- dang 8y ago
  If you continue to do nationalistic flamewar on HN we will ban you. No more of this, please. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
pknerd 8y ago
Because a day earlier India announced about a fake surgical strike where their pilots dropped payload and killed a few trees and said they killed terrorists

amriksohata 8y ago

India have played a diplomatic masterclass. They can claim non-military action against a terrorist group (that is supported by ex pakistani army men which were probably killed too). 300 in total. Whilst Pakistan took down 1 of Indias armymen and 40 soliders via a terror attack. India also claims to have down a Pakistani jet. Overall India look better on the international stage and have also manned down more numbers. Pakistan really has been useless both at diplomatic and non diplomatic methods.

stunt 8y ago

How any of these stuff is related to HN?

pknerd 8y ago

Indian PM Modi was(is) in trouble. He lost elections massively in 4(?) Indian states. He is also facing Rafael planes scandal in which former French President also revealed a few things about the scandal. Opposition parties like INC and AAP raised voice against Modi's moves to mess within and out of the country. Unlike Pakistan, India has more hysteria for the neighbor and like everywhere else, using religion and Pakistan could help to gain popular votes. The attack by India was very predictable, even Indians[1] said it 5-6 months back. What actually made it worse for Modi that Pakistan responded back and captured their pilot thus made Modi in trouble as the opposition is asking questions. Despite of warmongering Media and politicians, PM of Pakistan again asked for dialogues. Even many sane Indians are appreciating it [2] PS: All of the Info above about India politics is based on Indian newspapers and their politicians' statements. [1] https://twitter.com/ashoswai/status/1072503110118096897?lang=en https://twitter.com/ashoswai/status/1072503110118096897?lang... [2] https://www.facebook.com/hanif.ajari/posts/2606114666071848 https://www.facebook.com/hanif.ajari/posts/2606114666071848