4 ms·

Do you think kubernetes are necessary for small businesses?

by pictur 8y ago

redmorphium 8y ago
No, for the same reason that Martin Fowler argues you should start with a monolith first before moving to a microservices architecture.
- rhizome31 8y ago
  What is currently a good alternative for a small business who needs to distribute containers on a handful of nodes? Docker swarm mode?
  - MediumD 8y ago
    If you need to distribute containers on a handful of nodes, kubernetes is great (and far better than Docker swarm imho). However, most small businesses probably don't need to have a microservice setup and can simply deploy a simple monolith while they focus on getting their business off the ground.
    - rhizome31 8y ago
      Thank you. I was thinking that maybe swarm mode would be simpler to set up and maintain. Just to give more context, our use case is spawning Jupyter notebook in containers using JupyterHub and DockerSpawner so that each data scientist gets a personal ready-to-use environment to work with. With 4 data scientists we're beginning to reach the limits of the largest instance provided by our cloud provider and we're expecting to have more users soon. Actually our current cloud provider has just released a managed k8s service so that might be the way to go.
      - MediumD 8y ago
        Gotcha. Yeah, I would much rather use a managed k8s service over deploying and maintaining my own. GCP's GKE has been great for us so far and very reasonably priced.
  - scarejunba 8y ago
    Kube is fine for this, but don't roll your own, use GKE. Perhaps you'd be better served using more managed services, though?
    - rhizome31 8y ago
      What do you mean by more managed services?
      - icebraining 8y ago
        I'm guessing Heroku, Google App Engine, AWS Beanstalk and such.
  - djsumdog 8y ago
    A single baremetal server with just docker containers. It's much easier to migrate from just containers running on nodes to an orchestration system (marathon, nomad OR k3s/k8s; there are other options) than to start with the orchestration system.
    - rhizome31 8y ago
      This is the situation we're in. We're beginning to reach the limits of what can be handled on a single instance, mostly regarding memory.
    - noir_lord 8y ago
      In my case it's a single bare metal server with KVM guests and ansible. Docker is on my long term list (maybe) but the current system is fast, stable and requires little intervention so docker would have to offer a massive change not a step change to make it worth it. I always default to things I know until the benefits are clear and it's worked out well so far.
  - peterwwillis 8y ago
    Docker swarm, Consul+Nomad, AWS Fargate, Azure ACS, Google GCP, etc. Even DC/OS+Marathon is probably simpler. If you really think you need K8s, use a managed service provider like GKE, AKS, or a platform manager like Rancher. You need to pay a specialized company to build and operate it for you, or you aren't going to have a fun time. I highly recommend leveraging AWS, Google, Azure, etc services. Especially if you're a small business, spending a little for off the shelf tools that someone else operates and supports is going to help you big time.
danaur 8y ago
It wasn't before it existed and isn't now it's convenient though
whazor 8y ago
I think maybe eventually with cheaper ARM CPUs.
sliken 8y ago
Necessary, no. But with the hardware almost free, a 3 x Raspberry Pi cluster, switch, access pointer, and a small UPS would be a few $100 which allows for some interesting possibilities. Pretty much any business will want inventory tracking, tracking staff hours, monitoring cameras, sensors for detecting flooding/doors left open/freezers dying, running point of sales terminals, keeping the supply chain running smoothly, handling customer loyalty cards, handling returns, etc. An on site cluster can help with much of that, even if there's a hardware failure or the network is out. Question is how will these business find the apps they need that run turn key on some small k8s cluster?
- vinceguidry 8y ago
  Hardware was never the bottleneck there. The systems could cost a hundred times that and it would still be a rounding error on the capex of even the smallest "real" business. The obstacle to using custom hardware and software in local biz is and has always been, the fact that by relying on it, the one guy who knows how to administer it all becomes the single point of failure for the whole business. No amount of tooling can save them from that. So local biz will always be beholden to the Oracles of the world, because smart individuals just can't be relied on. Businesses need to rely on other businesses. A business with a customer service departments and spare stock on hand. K3s or k8s might be used in the technology product offered by such a business, but this by itself won't change the economics of that market.
  - sliken 8y ago
    Dunno. I've know several business owners that didn't take credit cards until recently, and even then only did so because the newer companies have significantly lowered the investment cost. Maybe you don't consider small family owned restaurants "real". Seems like there's an opportunity for a cheap 3 node cluster, sold as a value add to businesses and supported a platform that application writers could target. They might well come with a support contract, some basic functionality, and then users could pay for inventory, staff scheduling, point of sales terminal support, integration with food delivery services, etc. Much like how some home/small business NASs these days have support for 100s of integrations to various online services.
outime 8y ago
Most likely not, as it adds quite a bit of complexity. It might be easier to start with simpler abstractions such as e.g. AWS ECS or similar alternatives (cloud or on-prem) if you want to use containers.
sigi45 8y ago
Nope but it solves problems you have to fix yourself otherwise anyway: - Rolling update? Build it yourself or get it with k8s - Infrastructure as code? Do it somehow yourself with ansible, awx or other setup OR just use k8s - Running different workloads on a bunch of hardware with resource scheduler -> some trickery or x different kind of vms I like it very much and i hope and guess that the k8s way will take over a lot. And since i'm working with k8s i really wanna have it at home. k3s sounds like a very good way forward. If you have a good working little setup, you don't need to replace it with k8s.
mrweasel 8y ago
Kubernetes isn't even necessary for medium and large businesses. It's more a question of what problem you're trying to solve. Kubernetes is only relevant if you have the need to scale your service quickly and/or often. If you run it on your own hardware the value is even more tricky to work out, it can still be a benefit. Whether or not it help you save on hardware cost is extremely dependent on your usage.
- base698 8y ago
  I see it as decoupling the system administrator tasks from the software tasks. Sys admins can setup the OS, volumes, kubernetes, and monitoring processes. Application developers can do their own thing and deploy apps without having to care about the details of which mount their app needs for disks or the intricacies of whichever process runner they use.
peterwwillis 8y ago
No, in capital letters, with exclamation marks. (We're not allowed to be visibly dramatic on HN)

Do you think kubernetes are necessary for small businesses?

by pictur 8y ago

Do you think kubernetes are necessary for small businesses?

No, for the same reason that Martin Fowler argues you should start with a monolith first before moving to a microservices architecture.

rhizome31 8y ago
What is currently a good alternative for a small business who needs to distribute containers on a handful of nodes? Docker swarm mode?
- MediumD 8y ago
  If you need to distribute containers on a handful of nodes, kubernetes is great (and far better than Docker swarm imho). However, most small businesses probably don't need to have a microservice setup and can simply deploy a simple monolith while they focus on getting their business off the ground.
  - rhizome31 8y ago
    Thank you. I was thinking that maybe swarm mode would be simpler to set up and maintain. Just to give more context, our use case is spawning Jupyter notebook in containers using JupyterHub and DockerSpawner so that each data scientist gets a personal ready-to-use environment to work with. With 4 data scientists we're beginning to reach the limits of the largest instance provided by our cloud provider and we're expecting to have more users soon. Actually our current cloud provider has just released a managed k8s service so that might be the way to go.
    - MediumD 8y ago
      Gotcha. Yeah, I would much rather use a managed k8s service over deploying and maintaining my own. GCP's GKE has been great for us so far and very reasonably priced.
- scarejunba 8y ago
  Kube is fine for this, but don't roll your own, use GKE. Perhaps you'd be better served using more managed services, though?
  - rhizome31 8y ago
    What do you mean by more managed services?
    - icebraining 8y ago
      I'm guessing Heroku, Google App Engine, AWS Beanstalk and such.
- djsumdog 8y ago
  A single baremetal server with just docker containers. It's much easier to migrate from just containers running on nodes to an orchestration system (marathon, nomad OR k3s/k8s; there are other options) than to start with the orchestration system.
  - rhizome31 8y ago
    This is the situation we're in. We're beginning to reach the limits of what can be handled on a single instance, mostly regarding memory.
  - noir_lord 8y ago
    In my case it's a single bare metal server with KVM guests and ansible. Docker is on my long term list (maybe) but the current system is fast, stable and requires little intervention so docker would have to offer a massive change not a step change to make it worth it. I always default to things I know until the benefits are clear and it's worked out well so far.
- peterwwillis 8y ago
  Docker swarm, Consul+Nomad, AWS Fargate, Azure ACS, Google GCP, etc. Even DC/OS+Marathon is probably simpler. If you really think you need K8s, use a managed service provider like GKE, AKS, or a platform manager like Rancher. You need to pay a specialized company to build and operate it for you, or you aren't going to have a fun time. I highly recommend leveraging AWS, Google, Azure, etc services. Especially if you're a small business, spending a little for off the shelf tools that someone else operates and supports is going to help you big time.

danaur 8y ago

It wasn't before it existed and isn't now it's convenient though

whazor 8y ago

I think maybe eventually with cheaper ARM CPUs.

sliken 8y ago

Necessary, no. But with the hardware almost free, a 3 x Raspberry Pi cluster, switch, access pointer, and a small UPS would be a few $100 which allows for some interesting possibilities. Pretty much any business will want inventory tracking, tracking staff hours, monitoring cameras, sensors for detecting flooding/doors left open/freezers dying, running point of sales terminals, keeping the supply chain running smoothly, handling customer loyalty cards, handling returns, etc. An on site cluster can help with much of that, even if there's a hardware failure or the network is out. Question is how will these business find the apps they need that run turn key on some small k8s cluster?

vinceguidry 8y ago
Hardware was never the bottleneck there. The systems could cost a hundred times that and it would still be a rounding error on the capex of even the smallest "real" business. The obstacle to using custom hardware and software in local biz is and has always been, the fact that by relying on it, the one guy who knows how to administer it all becomes the single point of failure for the whole business. No amount of tooling can save them from that. So local biz will always be beholden to the Oracles of the world, because smart individuals just can't be relied on. Businesses need to rely on other businesses. A business with a customer service departments and spare stock on hand. K3s or k8s might be used in the technology product offered by such a business, but this by itself won't change the economics of that market.
- sliken 8y ago
  Dunno. I've know several business owners that didn't take credit cards until recently, and even then only did so because the newer companies have significantly lowered the investment cost. Maybe you don't consider small family owned restaurants "real". Seems like there's an opportunity for a cheap 3 node cluster, sold as a value add to businesses and supported a platform that application writers could target. They might well come with a support contract, some basic functionality, and then users could pay for inventory, staff scheduling, point of sales terminal support, integration with food delivery services, etc. Much like how some home/small business NASs these days have support for 100s of integrations to various online services.

outime 8y ago

Most likely not, as it adds quite a bit of complexity. It might be easier to start with simpler abstractions such as e.g. AWS ECS or similar alternatives (cloud or on-prem) if you want to use containers.

sigi45 8y ago

Nope but it solves problems you have to fix yourself otherwise anyway: - Rolling update? Build it yourself or get it with k8s - Infrastructure as code? Do it somehow yourself with ansible, awx or other setup OR just use k8s - Running different workloads on a bunch of hardware with resource scheduler -> some trickery or x different kind of vms I like it very much and i hope and guess that the k8s way will take over a lot. And since i'm working with k8s i really wanna have it at home. k3s sounds like a very good way forward. If you have a good working little setup, you don't need to replace it with k8s.

mrweasel 8y ago

Kubernetes isn't even necessary for medium and large businesses. It's more a question of what problem you're trying to solve. Kubernetes is only relevant if you have the need to scale your service quickly and/or often. If you run it on your own hardware the value is even more tricky to work out, it can still be a benefit. Whether or not it help you save on hardware cost is extremely dependent on your usage.

base698 8y ago
I see it as decoupling the system administrator tasks from the software tasks. Sys admins can setup the OS, volumes, kubernetes, and monitoring processes. Application developers can do their own thing and deploy apps without having to care about the details of which mount their app needs for disks or the intricacies of whichever process runner they use.

peterwwillis 8y ago

No, in capital letters, with exclamation marks. (We're not allowed to be visibly dramatic on HN)