7 ms·

What are those “free market countries”? Or do you use this term to refer to countries which are not dictatorships?

anoncake 8y ago
> Or do you use this term to refer to countries which are not dictatorships? No, that would be absurd, considering free markets have as little to do with democracy as with freedom.
- andrenth 8y ago
  Then please do list those free market countries who are poorer than Cuba. I'm really curious.
  - anoncake 8y ago
    According to CIA numbers[1], there are 101 economies poorer than Cuba. Do you really think they're all "communist"? Including American Samoa? Somalia isn't known for its "big government" either.
    - andrenth 8y ago
      You didn't paste the link. Is it this one? https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/211rank.html https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/... So when you say free market, it seems you really mean "not-communist", correct? Because I never said they were all communist. It would seem fair to me to remove from that list those countries below Cuba which are in fact communist or which have a history of being destroyed by communism, those who are kept poor by brutal dictators, like many from Africa, and those recently affected by war. It seems to me those countries wouldn't qualify as free markets. Then I invite you to check the Index of Economic Freedom[1] to see if the remaining ones are really "free market" countries.. Note that this is all based on per capita GDP numbers provided by the Cuban government and therefore highly unreliable. [1] https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking
      - anoncake 8y ago
        > It would seem fair to me to remove from that list those countries below Cuba which are in fact communist That would be kind of a no-op. But I guess you mean planned economies, which should of course be removed from that list. > those who are kept poor by brutal dictators, like many from Africa Absolutely not. To the contrary, it makes sense to remove democracies from the list. After all, we're comparing planned economies and free market economies, not democracies and dictatorships. Since I hardly think Cuba qualifies as a democracy yet, comparing it to free-market dictatorships is a more useful comparison. > and those recently affected by war. Sure, if we also exclude those countries affected by economic warfare waged by the USA. But you've got a point here: A country's welfare is influenced by a lot of factors, not just its economic policies. We aren't exactly running laboratory experiments here. You can look at two countries, see which one does better, but that doesn't really tell you why. > Then I invite you to check the Index of Economic Freedom[1] to see if the remaining ones are really "free market" countries.. I'm not interested in an index that shows how much a conservative think tank likes a country's policies. But if you insist: almost all countries with a higher GDP rank higher than Cuba on that index. > Note that this is all based on per capita GDP numbers provided by the Cuban government and therefore highly unreliable. I don't think the CIA would just parrot Cuban propaganda. If all it did was mindlessly reproducing each country's official numbers, North Korea would be #1.
        andrenth 8y ago
        > That would be kind of a no-op. It would remove North Korea, Laos and Vietnam, and a host of other countries where the totalitarian inclinations weren’t able to reach their final goals yet. > comparing it to free-market dictatorships is a more useful comparison. Could you list a few free-market dictatorships? Do you think poor African countries are free markets? > affected by economic warfare waged by the USA. It’s funny, when the US invests in a foreign country, it’s evil imperialism; when it doesn’t, it’s economic warfare. > I'm not interested in an index that shows how much a conservative think tank likes a country's policies. Their methodology is fully available. Do you have any criticism on their data other than that it was produced by people you don’t like? There is a strong correlation between the economic freedom index and the OECD quality of life index. Is the OECD a conservative think tank? Do you think this correlation is just coincidence? > almost all countries with a higher GDP rank higher than Cuba on that index. Is this also a coincidence? > I don't think the CIA would just parrot Cuban propaganda. I was taking about the numbers from Wikipedia, which are about twice as high as those from the CIA. And still the CIA number seems overly optimistic, given average salaries of $30. That, or the inequalities among the Cuba political elite and normal people strongly distort the average. Who would have thought.

> Or do you use this term to refer to countries which are not dictatorships? No, that would be absurd, considering free markets have as little to do with democracy as with freedom.

andrenth 8y ago
Then please do list those free market countries who are poorer than Cuba. I'm really curious.
- anoncake 8y ago
  According to CIA numbers[1], there are 101 economies poorer than Cuba. Do you really think they're all "communist"? Including American Samoa? Somalia isn't known for its "big government" either.
  - andrenth 8y ago
    You didn't paste the link. Is it this one? https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/211rank.html https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/... So when you say free market, it seems you really mean "not-communist", correct? Because I never said they were all communist. It would seem fair to me to remove from that list those countries below Cuba which are in fact communist or which have a history of being destroyed by communism, those who are kept poor by brutal dictators, like many from Africa, and those recently affected by war. It seems to me those countries wouldn't qualify as free markets. Then I invite you to check the Index of Economic Freedom[1] to see if the remaining ones are really "free market" countries.. Note that this is all based on per capita GDP numbers provided by the Cuban government and therefore highly unreliable. [1] https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking
    - anoncake 8y ago
      > It would seem fair to me to remove from that list those countries below Cuba which are in fact communist That would be kind of a no-op. But I guess you mean planned economies, which should of course be removed from that list. > those who are kept poor by brutal dictators, like many from Africa Absolutely not. To the contrary, it makes sense to remove democracies from the list. After all, we're comparing planned economies and free market economies, not democracies and dictatorships. Since I hardly think Cuba qualifies as a democracy yet, comparing it to free-market dictatorships is a more useful comparison. > and those recently affected by war. Sure, if we also exclude those countries affected by economic warfare waged by the USA. But you've got a point here: A country's welfare is influenced by a lot of factors, not just its economic policies. We aren't exactly running laboratory experiments here. You can look at two countries, see which one does better, but that doesn't really tell you why. > Then I invite you to check the Index of Economic Freedom[1] to see if the remaining ones are really "free market" countries.. I'm not interested in an index that shows how much a conservative think tank likes a country's policies. But if you insist: almost all countries with a higher GDP rank higher than Cuba on that index. > Note that this is all based on per capita GDP numbers provided by the Cuban government and therefore highly unreliable. I don't think the CIA would just parrot Cuban propaganda. If all it did was mindlessly reproducing each country's official numbers, North Korea would be #1.
      - andrenth 8y ago
        > That would be kind of a no-op. It would remove North Korea, Laos and Vietnam, and a host of other countries where the totalitarian inclinations weren’t able to reach their final goals yet. > comparing it to free-market dictatorships is a more useful comparison. Could you list a few free-market dictatorships? Do you think poor African countries are free markets? > affected by economic warfare waged by the USA. It’s funny, when the US invests in a foreign country, it’s evil imperialism; when it doesn’t, it’s economic warfare. > I'm not interested in an index that shows how much a conservative think tank likes a country's policies. Their methodology is fully available. Do you have any criticism on their data other than that it was produced by people you don’t like? There is a strong correlation between the economic freedom index and the OECD quality of life index. Is the OECD a conservative think tank? Do you think this correlation is just coincidence? > almost all countries with a higher GDP rank higher than Cuba on that index. Is this also a coincidence? > I don't think the CIA would just parrot Cuban propaganda. I was taking about the numbers from Wikipedia, which are about twice as high as those from the CIA. And still the CIA number seems overly optimistic, given average salaries of $30. That, or the inequalities among the Cuba political elite and normal people strongly distort the average. Who would have thought.