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Why this bizarre cultish paranoia? He's in this mess because he committed securities fraud. He got a slap-on-the wrist sweetheart deal and he can't even stick t

Why this bizarre cultish paranoia? He's in this mess because he committed securities fraud. He got a slap-on-the wrist sweetheart deal and he can't even stick to that. He's done all of this to himself, and he can't seem to stop.

stefanmichael 8y ago
it's not really paranoia when you factor in how much short interest the $TSLA stock has, there are literally tens of billions of dollars to be gained if the people with these short positions can discredit or shift public opinion on musk
- ceejayoz 8y ago
  That's fairly minuscule, really. Short sellers can't make Musk bash the SEC or call people pedos; that's on him. Musk himself has $55.8B in compensation tied to market cap at stake, which gives him equally self-interested reasons to balance things out. https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/21/tesla-shareholders-approve-elon-musks-multibilion-dollar-compensation-plan.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/21/tesla-shareholders-approve-e...
  - dallashoxton 8y ago
    >Short sellers can't make Musk bash the SEC or call people pedos; that's on him. But they certainly can engineer a fake rumor of an SEC requesting contempt of court by manipulating journalists and forging documents, if sufficiently motivated. Consider the SuperMicro story submitted to mainstream publications last year that was obviously fake and caused a massive decline in their stock. I don't think it's above a sophisticated actor to socially engineer a journalist in service of a "short and distort" campaign. Even Jim Cramer laid out the typical tactics of a short attack: get a short position open and then spread false rumors to a "bozo reporter" [0][1] I'm no big Elon Musk fan, but the funny thing is -- correct me if I'm missing something -- I can't seem to find any evidence that the SEC ever published the complaint[2] documents supplied by a USA today journalist on the sec.gov website. Searching for "Case 1:18-cv-08865-AJN" only brings up the original settlement from October 2018. That alone gives me pause. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6gxPCurDJs&t=1m43s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6gxPCurDJs&t=1m43s [1]: https://seekingalpha.com/instablog/2918951-g-hudson/1026551-how-the-big-players-manipulate-the-stock-market https://seekingalpha.com/instablog/2918951-g-hudson/1026551-... [2]: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/5750664-Show-Cause.html https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/5750664-Show-Cause.h...
    - asdfasgasdgasdg 8y ago
      So, let me get this straight. You think short sellers are a massive cabal of evil geniuses and they just go around forging court documents and duping journalists? But just in the case of TSLA, not all the other companies it would be possible to short? And you think that's more likely than that the SEC asked the judge to hold Musk in contempt, which he obviously is by a plain reading of the settlement agreement? This is waayayayayayaaaayyyyy off the deep end. Please check your priors, they are busted.
      - dallashoxton 8y ago
        You're acting as if market manipulation is some far-out conspiracy theory rather than something relatively common. I don't think it takes a "kabal of evil geniuses" to dupe a few credulous journalists who are incentivized and looking for a scoop by forging some documents. There are far more complex market manipulation conspiracies that are well-documented (see: LIBOR scandal) Furthermore, why haven't we heard anything from the SEC? They are an increasingly transparent organization. Why haven't they issued a press release or published their court filings on their website? Are we supposed to just trust a journalist's word and ability to verify that an anonymous "source familiar with the matter" isn't just bamboozling them?
        ceejayoz 8y ago
        C'mon, mate. Someone linked you to Musk himself commenting on this story. The "faked court docs" conspiracy theory dies definitively there. https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1100215984713957376 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1100215984713957376
        anth_anm 8y ago
        > You're acting as if market manipulation is some far-out conspiracy theory rather than something relatively common. of course it's common. https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1026872652290379776?lang=en https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1026872652290379776?lang... There's one excellent example of illegal market manipulation.
        8y ago
- anth_anm 8y ago
  As opposed the absolutely nothing to be gained by preserving the cult of Elon? The only difference between Tesla and any other company is that Tesla has a lot more reasons why people want to be short.
Phlarp 8y ago
I completely agree with everything you've posted on this topic, Elon is 100% his own worst enemy on this front. However, as I scroll through this thread I see lots of top level comments with a single reply from the same (green) account; I can see how some might knee-jerk and jump to calling that astro-turfing/short sellers/someone with an axe to grind.
- unityByFreedom 8y ago
  > I can see how some might knee-jerk and jump to calling that astro-turfing/short sellers/someone with an axe to grind. I would've made the same comments if he were not making them. If it's green, sure you can be skeptical, but that does not prevent people from reading the comment for its merit. If someone wants to call someone a short just for being pessimistic about Musk's behavior then just add that to the pile. Musk blames all his problems on shorts. Tesla's failures are not his responsibility. He's only responsible for its successes, including those of interns who make the media. Musk is the only one who can get things done quickly at Tesla because only what he says goes, and even his word does not mean much lately. Had a settlement with the SEC, backed out. Settled again with a worse deal a day later, and soon after violates the agreement and states on TV he never had any intention of following it.
whamlastxmas 8y ago
Because he's an innovator in multiple industries and generally seems like the type of person that would be admired on a site like HN and yet he constantly gets shit on for the smallest things.
- saghm 8y ago
  Committing securites fraud is not something I'd consider one of "the smallest things"
  - whamlastxmas 8y ago
    Your hyperbole is only proving my point
    - saghm 8y ago
      He literally had to settle a with the FCC for manipulating Tesla's stock price by falsely claiming that he was going to take the company private; that's not hyperbole

stefanmichael 8y ago

it's not really paranoia when you factor in how much short interest the $TSLA stock has, there are literally tens of billions of dollars to be gained if the people with these short positions can discredit or shift public opinion on musk

ceejayoz 8y ago
That's fairly minuscule, really. Short sellers can't make Musk bash the SEC or call people pedos; that's on him. Musk himself has $55.8B in compensation tied to market cap at stake, which gives him equally self-interested reasons to balance things out. https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/21/tesla-shareholders-approve-elon-musks-multibilion-dollar-compensation-plan.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/21/tesla-shareholders-approve-e...
- dallashoxton 8y ago
  >Short sellers can't make Musk bash the SEC or call people pedos; that's on him. But they certainly can engineer a fake rumor of an SEC requesting contempt of court by manipulating journalists and forging documents, if sufficiently motivated. Consider the SuperMicro story submitted to mainstream publications last year that was obviously fake and caused a massive decline in their stock. I don't think it's above a sophisticated actor to socially engineer a journalist in service of a "short and distort" campaign. Even Jim Cramer laid out the typical tactics of a short attack: get a short position open and then spread false rumors to a "bozo reporter" [0][1] I'm no big Elon Musk fan, but the funny thing is -- correct me if I'm missing something -- I can't seem to find any evidence that the SEC ever published the complaint[2] documents supplied by a USA today journalist on the sec.gov website. Searching for "Case 1:18-cv-08865-AJN" only brings up the original settlement from October 2018. That alone gives me pause. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6gxPCurDJs&t=1m43s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6gxPCurDJs&t=1m43s [1]: https://seekingalpha.com/instablog/2918951-g-hudson/1026551-how-the-big-players-manipulate-the-stock-market https://seekingalpha.com/instablog/2918951-g-hudson/1026551-... [2]: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/5750664-Show-Cause.html https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/5750664-Show-Cause.h...
  - asdfasgasdgasdg 8y ago
    So, let me get this straight. You think short sellers are a massive cabal of evil geniuses and they just go around forging court documents and duping journalists? But just in the case of TSLA, not all the other companies it would be possible to short? And you think that's more likely than that the SEC asked the judge to hold Musk in contempt, which he obviously is by a plain reading of the settlement agreement? This is waayayayayayaaaayyyyy off the deep end. Please check your priors, they are busted.
    - dallashoxton 8y ago
      You're acting as if market manipulation is some far-out conspiracy theory rather than something relatively common. I don't think it takes a "kabal of evil geniuses" to dupe a few credulous journalists who are incentivized and looking for a scoop by forging some documents. There are far more complex market manipulation conspiracies that are well-documented (see: LIBOR scandal) Furthermore, why haven't we heard anything from the SEC? They are an increasingly transparent organization. Why haven't they issued a press release or published their court filings on their website? Are we supposed to just trust a journalist's word and ability to verify that an anonymous "source familiar with the matter" isn't just bamboozling them?
      - ceejayoz 8y ago
        C'mon, mate. Someone linked you to Musk himself commenting on this story. The "faked court docs" conspiracy theory dies definitively there. https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1100215984713957376 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1100215984713957376
      - anth_anm 8y ago
        > You're acting as if market manipulation is some far-out conspiracy theory rather than something relatively common. of course it's common. https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1026872652290379776?lang=en https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1026872652290379776?lang... There's one excellent example of illegal market manipulation.
      - 8y ago
anth_anm 8y ago
As opposed the absolutely nothing to be gained by preserving the cult of Elon? The only difference between Tesla and any other company is that Tesla has a lot more reasons why people want to be short.

Phlarp 8y ago

I completely agree with everything you've posted on this topic, Elon is 100% his own worst enemy on this front. However, as I scroll through this thread I see lots of top level comments with a single reply from the same (green) account; I can see how some might knee-jerk and jump to calling that astro-turfing/short sellers/someone with an axe to grind.

unityByFreedom 8y ago
> I can see how some might knee-jerk and jump to calling that astro-turfing/short sellers/someone with an axe to grind. I would've made the same comments if he were not making them. If it's green, sure you can be skeptical, but that does not prevent people from reading the comment for its merit. If someone wants to call someone a short just for being pessimistic about Musk's behavior then just add that to the pile. Musk blames all his problems on shorts. Tesla's failures are not his responsibility. He's only responsible for its successes, including those of interns who make the media. Musk is the only one who can get things done quickly at Tesla because only what he says goes, and even his word does not mean much lately. Had a settlement with the SEC, backed out. Settled again with a worse deal a day later, and soon after violates the agreement and states on TV he never had any intention of following it.

whamlastxmas 8y ago

Because he's an innovator in multiple industries and generally seems like the type of person that would be admired on a site like HN and yet he constantly gets shit on for the smallest things.

saghm 8y ago
Committing securites fraud is not something I'd consider one of "the smallest things"
- whamlastxmas 8y ago
  Your hyperbole is only proving my point
  - saghm 8y ago
    He literally had to settle a with the FCC for manipulating Tesla's stock price by falsely claiming that he was going to take the company private; that's not hyperbole