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Cubans overwhelmingly ratify new socialist constitution

27 points by Phenomenit 8y ago

Jun8 8y ago
Good discussion on reddit : https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/auv63j/cuba_ratifies_a_new_constitution_that_creates/ https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/auv63j/cuba_rati...
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
pmarreck 8y ago
I visited Cuba a year ago for a couple days on a cruise. I had a nice time, some great people, some great venues (REALLY great venues)... but won't be going back, and it's due to systematic deficiencies (trivial examples: garbage EVERYWHERE, many toilets have to ration toiled paper (!), not to mention, no incentive to clean the bathrooms, many restaurants had bland flavors due to the inability to order specialty food items and spices and only work with the bulk items the government gives you). Also it's frankly weird how the last capitalist era there is basically enshrined in their culture (from the cars, to the fairly-well-preserved buildings dating from that era) Odd observational note on the people: Many are into what I'd call cults but what most would call run-of-the-mill superstitious beliefs (voodoo, etc.)
- daed 8y ago
  Your complaints sound like they're coming from someone who went on a cruise to almost any third world island - though maybe other destinations are better controlled by the cruise companies to take you to specific (clean) tourist ports. Cuba is not without its problems, but much of what you describe is not unique to a third world country. The one area you're just completely wrong about is the flavors. I was only able to stay for 10 days, but on my short trip there I stayed in locals' houses (which is quite common there - google "casas particulares") and the vast majority of the meals we had - especially the ones cooked by the people we stayed with - were extremely flavorful. I'm not claiming socialism is great or anything - there was a potato shortage while I was there - but I'd just hope no one reads your post and thinks Cubans are eating terrible bland food...
  - woodandsteel 8y ago
    >Cuba is not without its problems, but much of what you describe is not unique to a third world country. >I'm not claiming socialism is great or anything - there was a potato shortage while I was there But the point is that the countries that were third world a half century ago but have since raised themselves up to developed status did so through free market economics, while the socialist dictatorship countries like Cuba failed.
    - anoncake 8y ago
      Apparently, the methods used for planning economies known until ~1990, executed with the computers and communication systems of the time, in countries that were relatively poor to begin with, ruled as dictatorships, did not work well enough while the USA and its allies actively fought "communism". That tells us nothing. Guess which country is the richest in the Caribbean? Okay, it's the USA. It may hardly be a democracy anymore, it doesn't particularly respect human rights, but it hasn't regressed to developing status yet and it has free market economics up the wazoo. The richest independent country (as in, its mainland is in the Caribbean) is of course Cuba.
      - AnimalMuppet 8y ago
        Cuba's richer than, say, St. Kitts & Nevis? I'd like to see your source for that... Or are you listing St. Kitts as not independent, because it's part of the Commonwealth?
        anoncake 8y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuba https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuba https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Kitts_and_Nevis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Kitts_and_Nevis Trinidad and Tobago is richer though (at $32,520 GDP/capita vs Cuba's $22,237).
        AnimalMuppet 8y ago
- djb_hackernews 8y ago
  > Also it's frankly weird how the last capitalist era there is basically enshrined in their culture No, I think your first list perfectly enshrines the effects of modern day capitalism on modern day Cuba... > garbage EVERYWHERE, many toilets have to ration toiled paper (!), not to mention, no incentive to clean the bathrooms, many restaurants had bland flavors due to the inability to order specialty food items and spices and only work with the bulk items the government gives you
- elliekelly 8y ago
  I spent about 10 days in Cuba as part of a scientific research trip just before Obama eased the restrictions. What disturbed me the most was how many Cuban scientists I met who truly believed the Cubans would cure cancer for the entire world if it weren't for the American "blockade." Aside from the government propaganda, a lot of South American & Caribbean countries have the same issues you've outlined. (Though the lack of toilet seats has so far been pretty unique to Cuba in my travels most of the poorer countries are definitely BYOTP.) One thing that really stood out to me about Cuba when I went was their odd transition to "private property" which this new constitution vaguely addresses. When I was there (in 2014 or 2015?) Cubans were allowed to "own" real estate but the government could force them to "sell" the property at any time, at the price specified by the government, and only to the seller selected or approved by the government. It didn't seem that "ownership" came with many rights or benefits. As for the "voodoo" I think that's fairly common in the Caribbean/South America as well. There are "voodoo markets" in Haiti & Togo, for example. And the "witches market" in La Paz, Bolivia is... something if you're into being surrounded by dried llama fetuses.[1] [1]https://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-5273869/Inside-bizarre-witches-market-Bolivia.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-52738...
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - anoncake 8y ago
    > What disturbed me the most was how many Cuban scientists I met who truly believed the Cubans would cure cancer for the entire world if it weren't for the American "blockade." But don't these scientists know that they are way to lazy to cure cancer anyway because in socialism, people have no motivation to work? > When I was there (in 2014 or 2015?) Cubans were allowed to "own" real estate but the government could force them to "sell" the property at any time, at the price specified by the government, and only to the seller selected or approved by the government. AKA eminent domain? > https://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-52738.. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-52738.... Seriously?
    - 8y ago
- SolaceQuantum 8y ago
  "Many are into what I'd call cults but what most would call run-of-the-mill superstitious beliefs (voodoo, etc.)" Voodoo is not a run-of-the-mill superstition/cult any more than a major abrahamic religion is. It is a valid, recognized religious practice [1]. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Vod%C3%BA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Vod%C3%BA
  - pmarreck 8y ago
    I think I'm allowed to have a very negative opinion of unfounded belief systems, given the damage they've done the past 3000 years up to and including the present U.S. "fakenews is whatever I don't believe is true" administration https://www.salon.com/2014/11/17/6_reasons_why_religion_does_more_harm_than_good_partner/ https://www.salon.com/2014/11/17/6_reasons_why_religion_does...
anth_anm 8y ago
This is clearly rigged and dictatorship and regime change will be required for the good of the Cuban people who hate socialism.
- advisedwang 8y ago
  Why is it clearly rigged? The article doesn't even have any allegations of fraud to report on?
  - AnimalMuppet 8y ago
    Well, the government-controlled media pushed pretty hard for a "yes" vote. That's unfair, but it's less than vote fraud. The examples in the article sound like the vote count was reasonably accurate. (When someone against attends the vote count at their precinct, and says that it was 400 for, 25 against, and the official total says 86.85% for, that's probably an un-finagled tally - unless the ballots were stuffed before the count.)
    - scj 8y ago
      Alternatively, coercion: "Dissidents, who were divided between those who advocated a ‘no’ vote and those who called for abstention so as not to legitimize a process they deemed a fraud, reported a few incidents across the country of members being temporarily detained or harassed."
      - AnimalMuppet 8y ago
        Yes, I saw that. Presuming that it was "a few", I assumed that it hadn't affected the vote much. I mean, it still shouldn't happen at all. But you could detain a million people and it wouldn't be the cause of an 85% yes vote among 8 million people.
  - ncmncm 8y ago
    Closed governments can more easily manufacture consent than open ones. In open societies, it costs a lot more, but the victims gladly pay for it. But manufactured is manufactured, either way.
zeroname 8y ago
Seems like the people were offered a mixed bag: Have some direly needed reforms now in exchange for cementing the power of the party, which was already solid to begin with. Honestly, let us just keep Cuba a toy socialist country as it is and not boycott it. Otherwise, where would we point to when we want to show real world socialism? Assuming that Maduro is on his way out, of course.
lostmsu 8y ago
What exactly do they mean by "recognized the Internet"?
- twiss 8y ago
  I think the "recognition of" only refers to the immediately following "private property", not the whole list in that sentence. I've often thought natural languages could benefit from a grouping operator :) > There are references to {markets and {recognition of private property}, foreign investment, small businesses, gender identity, the internet, {the right to legal representation upon arrest} and habeas corpus}.
  - lostmsu 8y ago
    Question of what does the new constitution say about the Internet is still open.

27 points by Phenomenit 8y ago

Jun8 8y ago

Good discussion on reddit : https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/auv63j/cuba_ratifies_a_new_constitution_that_creates/ https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/auv63j/cuba_rati...

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

pmarreck 8y ago

I visited Cuba a year ago for a couple days on a cruise. I had a nice time, some great people, some great venues (REALLY great venues)... but won't be going back, and it's due to systematic deficiencies (trivial examples: garbage EVERYWHERE, many toilets have to ration toiled paper (!), not to mention, no incentive to clean the bathrooms, many restaurants had bland flavors due to the inability to order specialty food items and spices and only work with the bulk items the government gives you). Also it's frankly weird how the last capitalist era there is basically enshrined in their culture (from the cars, to the fairly-well-preserved buildings dating from that era) Odd observational note on the people: Many are into what I'd call cults but what most would call run-of-the-mill superstitious beliefs (voodoo, etc.)

daed 8y ago
Your complaints sound like they're coming from someone who went on a cruise to almost any third world island - though maybe other destinations are better controlled by the cruise companies to take you to specific (clean) tourist ports. Cuba is not without its problems, but much of what you describe is not unique to a third world country. The one area you're just completely wrong about is the flavors. I was only able to stay for 10 days, but on my short trip there I stayed in locals' houses (which is quite common there - google "casas particulares") and the vast majority of the meals we had - especially the ones cooked by the people we stayed with - were extremely flavorful. I'm not claiming socialism is great or anything - there was a potato shortage while I was there - but I'd just hope no one reads your post and thinks Cubans are eating terrible bland food...
- woodandsteel 8y ago
  >Cuba is not without its problems, but much of what you describe is not unique to a third world country. >I'm not claiming socialism is great or anything - there was a potato shortage while I was there But the point is that the countries that were third world a half century ago but have since raised themselves up to developed status did so through free market economics, while the socialist dictatorship countries like Cuba failed.
  - anoncake 8y ago
    Apparently, the methods used for planning economies known until ~1990, executed with the computers and communication systems of the time, in countries that were relatively poor to begin with, ruled as dictatorships, did not work well enough while the USA and its allies actively fought "communism". That tells us nothing. Guess which country is the richest in the Caribbean? Okay, it's the USA. It may hardly be a democracy anymore, it doesn't particularly respect human rights, but it hasn't regressed to developing status yet and it has free market economics up the wazoo. The richest independent country (as in, its mainland is in the Caribbean) is of course Cuba.
    - AnimalMuppet 8y ago
      Cuba's richer than, say, St. Kitts & Nevis? I'd like to see your source for that... Or are you listing St. Kitts as not independent, because it's part of the Commonwealth?
      - anoncake 8y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuba https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuba https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Kitts_and_Nevis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Kitts_and_Nevis Trinidad and Tobago is richer though (at $32,520 GDP/capita vs Cuba's $22,237).
        AnimalMuppet 8y ago
djb_hackernews 8y ago
> Also it's frankly weird how the last capitalist era there is basically enshrined in their culture No, I think your first list perfectly enshrines the effects of modern day capitalism on modern day Cuba... > garbage EVERYWHERE, many toilets have to ration toiled paper (!), not to mention, no incentive to clean the bathrooms, many restaurants had bland flavors due to the inability to order specialty food items and spices and only work with the bulk items the government gives you
elliekelly 8y ago
I spent about 10 days in Cuba as part of a scientific research trip just before Obama eased the restrictions. What disturbed me the most was how many Cuban scientists I met who truly believed the Cubans would cure cancer for the entire world if it weren't for the American "blockade." Aside from the government propaganda, a lot of South American & Caribbean countries have the same issues you've outlined. (Though the lack of toilet seats has so far been pretty unique to Cuba in my travels most of the poorer countries are definitely BYOTP.) One thing that really stood out to me about Cuba when I went was their odd transition to "private property" which this new constitution vaguely addresses. When I was there (in 2014 or 2015?) Cubans were allowed to "own" real estate but the government could force them to "sell" the property at any time, at the price specified by the government, and only to the seller selected or approved by the government. It didn't seem that "ownership" came with many rights or benefits. As for the "voodoo" I think that's fairly common in the Caribbean/South America as well. There are "voodoo markets" in Haiti & Togo, for example. And the "witches market" in La Paz, Bolivia is... something if you're into being surrounded by dried llama fetuses.[1] [1]https://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-5273869/Inside-bizarre-witches-market-Bolivia.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-52738...
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- anoncake 8y ago
  > What disturbed me the most was how many Cuban scientists I met who truly believed the Cubans would cure cancer for the entire world if it weren't for the American "blockade." But don't these scientists know that they are way to lazy to cure cancer anyway because in socialism, people have no motivation to work? > When I was there (in 2014 or 2015?) Cubans were allowed to "own" real estate but the government could force them to "sell" the property at any time, at the price specified by the government, and only to the seller selected or approved by the government. AKA eminent domain? > https://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-52738.. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-52738.... Seriously?
  - 8y ago
SolaceQuantum 8y ago
"Many are into what I'd call cults but what most would call run-of-the-mill superstitious beliefs (voodoo, etc.)" Voodoo is not a run-of-the-mill superstition/cult any more than a major abrahamic religion is. It is a valid, recognized religious practice [1]. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Vod%C3%BA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Vod%C3%BA
- pmarreck 8y ago
  I think I'm allowed to have a very negative opinion of unfounded belief systems, given the damage they've done the past 3000 years up to and including the present U.S. "fakenews is whatever I don't believe is true" administration https://www.salon.com/2014/11/17/6_reasons_why_religion_does_more_harm_than_good_partner/ https://www.salon.com/2014/11/17/6_reasons_why_religion_does...

anth_anm 8y ago

This is clearly rigged and dictatorship and regime change will be required for the good of the Cuban people who hate socialism.

advisedwang 8y ago
Why is it clearly rigged? The article doesn't even have any allegations of fraud to report on?
- AnimalMuppet 8y ago
  Well, the government-controlled media pushed pretty hard for a "yes" vote. That's unfair, but it's less than vote fraud. The examples in the article sound like the vote count was reasonably accurate. (When someone against attends the vote count at their precinct, and says that it was 400 for, 25 against, and the official total says 86.85% for, that's probably an un-finagled tally - unless the ballots were stuffed before the count.)
  - scj 8y ago
    Alternatively, coercion: "Dissidents, who were divided between those who advocated a ‘no’ vote and those who called for abstention so as not to legitimize a process they deemed a fraud, reported a few incidents across the country of members being temporarily detained or harassed."
    - AnimalMuppet 8y ago
      Yes, I saw that. Presuming that it was "a few", I assumed that it hadn't affected the vote much. I mean, it still shouldn't happen at all. But you could detain a million people and it wouldn't be the cause of an 85% yes vote among 8 million people.
- ncmncm 8y ago
  Closed governments can more easily manufacture consent than open ones. In open societies, it costs a lot more, but the victims gladly pay for it. But manufactured is manufactured, either way.

zeroname 8y ago

Seems like the people were offered a mixed bag: Have some direly needed reforms now in exchange for cementing the power of the party, which was already solid to begin with. Honestly, let us just keep Cuba a toy socialist country as it is and not boycott it. Otherwise, where would we point to when we want to show real world socialism? Assuming that Maduro is on his way out, of course.

lostmsu 8y ago

What exactly do they mean by "recognized the Internet"?

twiss 8y ago
I think the "recognition of" only refers to the immediately following "private property", not the whole list in that sentence. I've often thought natural languages could benefit from a grouping operator :) > There are references to {markets and {recognition of private property}, foreign investment, small businesses, gender identity, the internet, {the right to legal representation upon arrest} and habeas corpus}.
- lostmsu 8y ago
  Question of what does the new constitution say about the Internet is still open.