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I commented myself then deleted it because your rebuttal was more elegant :-) As a father of daughters I am personally glad that prisons exist and fully unders

by rpiguy 8y ago

I commented myself then deleted it because your rebuttal was more elegant :-) As a father of daughters I am personally glad that prisons exist and fully understand the issues with incarceration, but gladly accept the trade-off (like many moral dilemmas the optimal choice may differ from person to person). Were I African American and more likely to be wrongly imprisoned, I might feel differently.

badfrog 8y ago
> As a father of daughters [...] > Were I African American [...] I might feel differently. Why can't you incorporate women's issues into your world view without having daughters? Or civil rights issues without being black?
- Jtsummers 8y ago
  Because many people are incapable or unwillling to practice viewing issues from perspectives other than their own.
- DoofusOfDeath 8y ago
  > Why can't you incorporate women's issues into your world view without having daughters? Or civil rights issues without being black? Most people are most sympathetic to the plight of themselves and perhaps their children. The GP has daughters and is presumably not African-American. I wonder if you're talking about an attitude that you think the OP ought to have, whereas he/she is describing the attitude that he/she does have.
  - badfrog 8y ago
    > I wonder if you're talking about an attitude that you think the OP ought to have Yes, of course I am. My question was rhetorical. It sounds like that person understands that there are serious race issues in the criminal justice system but is willing to overlook them for his own self interest. I think we'd all be better off if we cared a bit more about people who are different from us.
pavlov 8y ago
> "As a father of daughters I am personally glad that prisons exist" How does one follow from the other? I also have daughters and it hasn't affected my view of prisons one way or the other.
- rpiguy 8y ago
  Makes me more grateful for law enforcement in general. Women are more likely to be victims of violent crimes.
chasingthewind 8y ago
The implication that being the father of daughters has some kind of special relevance for one's views on prisons strikes me as poorly thought out. At best it comes across as paternalistic.
- ummonk 8y ago
  >At best it comes across as paternalistic. Well it's perfectly normal for a father to be paternalistic.
thisisweirdok 8y ago
Yikes dude. You should feel empathy because women and black people are fellow humans, not because you _are or have fathered_ someone in those groups.
- DoofusOfDeath 8y ago
  It seems to me you're committing an is/ought fallacy. The GP was was describing his/her actual feelings on the matter, not the idealized feelings you seem to be recommending.
  - thisisweirdok 8y ago
    Alright, I guess I can revise my comment to say that I feel like it's kind of fucked that GP's empathy only extends to his self and no further.
    - tathougies 8y ago
      Empathy is an often overused word. It is quite likely your empathy only extends to yourself and a few other intimate relationship. Empathy refers to the ability to actually feel another's pain. Very few people can do this for anyone more than their family and close friends. Most people ought to instead focus on cultivating sympathy, which is the intellectual realization of another's suffering, and turning that sympathy into action.
      - thisisweirdok 8y ago
        Empathy is understanding, sympathy is recognition. If I stub my toe you don't have to feel that pain to empathize it, you have to understand what it feels like to suddenly be in pain. Sympathy in that situation would only require recognizing and pitying someone who is in pain, without necessarily understanding it.
        tathougies 8y ago
        The word empathy was originally understold to mean actually feeling the pain of someone else in pain. Sympathy had the meaning you ascribe to empathy: understanding intellectually that the person in pain is having a tough. That the words take on ever extravagant meanings indicates that theyve become so cliche as to be meaningless.
daeken 8y ago
As a father of a daughter, I particularly enjoy snow cones. Non-sequiturs are fun! When my daughter was born, my mom asked if my views on the death penalty (which I have historically opposed) have changed. When I said no, she asked "if someone hurt her, wouldn't you want them to die?" And I had to think about this, because yes, I probably would. But what I want and what is right aren't necessarily the same thing. Our entire justice system is fucked, at every possible level. If I put my daughter in the shoes of every victim out there, how would that possibly help me see things more objectively and make things better? You need to think outside your experience.

by rpiguy 8y ago

badfrog 8y ago

> As a father of daughters [...] > Were I African American [...] I might feel differently. Why can't you incorporate women's issues into your world view without having daughters? Or civil rights issues without being black?

Jtsummers 8y ago
Because many people are incapable or unwillling to practice viewing issues from perspectives other than their own.
DoofusOfDeath 8y ago
> Why can't you incorporate women's issues into your world view without having daughters? Or civil rights issues without being black? Most people are most sympathetic to the plight of themselves and perhaps their children. The GP has daughters and is presumably not African-American. I wonder if you're talking about an attitude that you think the OP ought to have, whereas he/she is describing the attitude that he/she does have.
- badfrog 8y ago
  > I wonder if you're talking about an attitude that you think the OP ought to have Yes, of course I am. My question was rhetorical. It sounds like that person understands that there are serious race issues in the criminal justice system but is willing to overlook them for his own self interest. I think we'd all be better off if we cared a bit more about people who are different from us.

pavlov 8y ago

> "As a father of daughters I am personally glad that prisons exist" How does one follow from the other? I also have daughters and it hasn't affected my view of prisons one way or the other.

rpiguy 8y ago
Makes me more grateful for law enforcement in general. Women are more likely to be victims of violent crimes.

chasingthewind 8y ago

The implication that being the father of daughters has some kind of special relevance for one's views on prisons strikes me as poorly thought out. At best it comes across as paternalistic.

ummonk 8y ago
>At best it comes across as paternalistic. Well it's perfectly normal for a father to be paternalistic.

thisisweirdok 8y ago

Yikes dude. You should feel empathy because women and black people are fellow humans, not because you _are or have fathered_ someone in those groups.

DoofusOfDeath 8y ago
It seems to me you're committing an is/ought fallacy. The GP was was describing his/her actual feelings on the matter, not the idealized feelings you seem to be recommending.
- thisisweirdok 8y ago
  Alright, I guess I can revise my comment to say that I feel like it's kind of fucked that GP's empathy only extends to his self and no further.
  - tathougies 8y ago
    Empathy is an often overused word. It is quite likely your empathy only extends to yourself and a few other intimate relationship. Empathy refers to the ability to actually feel another's pain. Very few people can do this for anyone more than their family and close friends. Most people ought to instead focus on cultivating sympathy, which is the intellectual realization of another's suffering, and turning that sympathy into action.
    - thisisweirdok 8y ago
      Empathy is understanding, sympathy is recognition. If I stub my toe you don't have to feel that pain to empathize it, you have to understand what it feels like to suddenly be in pain. Sympathy in that situation would only require recognizing and pitying someone who is in pain, without necessarily understanding it.
      - tathougies 8y ago
        The word empathy was originally understold to mean actually feeling the pain of someone else in pain. Sympathy had the meaning you ascribe to empathy: understanding intellectually that the person in pain is having a tough. That the words take on ever extravagant meanings indicates that theyve become so cliche as to be meaningless.

daeken 8y ago

As a father of a daughter, I particularly enjoy snow cones. Non-sequiturs are fun! When my daughter was born, my mom asked if my views on the death penalty (which I have historically opposed) have changed. When I said no, she asked "if someone hurt her, wouldn't you want them to die?" And I had to think about this, because yes, I probably would. But what I want and what is right aren't necessarily the same thing. Our entire justice system is fucked, at every possible level. If I put my daughter in the shoes of every victim out there, how would that possibly help me see things more objectively and make things better? You need to think outside your experience.