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You can find real balsamic vinegar at virtually any grocery store. Made in Italy in Modena or broader Emilia region, using Lambrusco or Trebbiano grapes, aged a

You can find real balsamic vinegar at virtually any grocery store. Made in Italy in Modena or broader Emilia region, using Lambrusco or Trebbiano grapes, aged at least 12 years, etc. Fully, legitimately balsamic vinegar. Because the difficulty and complexity of making balsamic vinegar really isn't that far removed from, say, bourbon. And we all know you can find real, legitimate bourbon at any shady liquor store. It's a profitable venture so a lot of it is made. Often these conversations turn into gate keeping, where we redefine what is "real" or not to disqualify the proles.

akamaka 8y ago
Just to clarify, there are three categories of balsamic of varying standards, the highest of which is expensive, aged in multiple barrels, and definitely not widely available in supermarkets. That being said, it’s a stretch to call the less expensive Balsamic of Modena “fake”, even though it is not made to the same strict standards and permits some additives. The third category of balsamic condiments made from syrups would be fair to call “fake”. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_Balsamic_Vinegar#TBV_compared_to_BVM_and_other_balsamic_products https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_Balsamic_Vinegar#T...
- sametmax 8y ago
  Steaks from Mc Donalds burgers are not fake. They are pure beef.
  - dpark 8y ago
    What does that even mean?
    - BuildTheRobots 8y ago
      These days, it tends to mean pink goo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanically_separated_meat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanically_separated_meat
      - lozenge 8y ago
        Your link says it has not been sold for human consumption for 15 years. And LFTB has not been used in fast food for five years: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/legal-separation/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/legal-separation/
        Detect 8y ago
        dude it's "ground beef" https://www.beefmagazine.com/beef-quality/dude-it-s-ground-beef-usda-reclassifies-bpi-s-signature-product https://www.beefmagazine.com/beef-quality/dude-it-s-ground-b... https://newfoodeconomy.org/bpi-pink-slime-ground-beef-usda-reclassifed/ https://newfoodeconomy.org/bpi-pink-slime-ground-beef-usda-r...
        ceejayoz 8y ago
        The USDA only approved that in December. I strongly suspect McDonalds can't change their processes and supply chain quite that quickly, nor are they likely to take the PR hit now.
      - ceejayoz 8y ago
        That page starts with "Not to be confused with Pink slime" and later goes on to say "mechanically separated beef is considered inedible and is prohibited for use as human food". McDonalds doesn't use either one, and stopped using the "pink slime" stuff in 2011: https://www.cnet.com/news/pink-slime-in-burgers-mcdonalds-hires-former-mythbuster-to-find-out/ https://www.cnet.com/news/pink-slime-in-burgers-mcdonalds-hi... > "McDonald's does not use lean beef trimmings treated with ammonia, what some individuals call 'pink slime,' in our burgers, and hasn't since 2011," McDonald's website also stated.
        justtopost 8y ago
        They don't use ammonia anymore, sure. Thats hardly the only pink slime, or mear glue out there.
  - phonypc 8y ago
    That analogy doesn't work on any level. Nobody buys a burger, let alone from McDonalds, expecting a steak. And they are indeed all beef, while cheaper balsamic isn't all grape must.
- WorldMaker 8y ago
  Which is the sort of market separation you see in Bourbon as well, to spin the analogy back. You can go to any cheap liquor store and find some Bourbon, but the expensive stuff is still hard to find for similar reasons (age, blends vs. single-barrel, etc). It's all still Bourbon, but there's still a quality differential between shelves. There's also "Tennessee Whiskey" which trades age/maturity for charcoal, which should never rightly be confused with Bourbon, but you'll still see a lot of bars place Jack Daniel right next to real Bourbon or much worse consider it their well Bourbon.
  - js2 8y ago
    This isn't quite accurate. Tennessee whiskey fully qualifies as bourbon whiskey. It's a marketing decision to call it otherwise. (Which is to say, Tennessee whiskey could be sold as bourbon, but not vice-versa. I believe the same can be said for Gin/Vodka btw.) Details: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourbon_whiskey#Legal_requirements https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourbon_whiskey#Legal_requirem... Also, in my experience, it's a lot easier to find top-grade bourbon than it is to find Traditional Balsamic Vinegar and I say that living somewhere with state-controlled ABC stores (NC).
    - Itaxpica 8y ago
      Technically speaking gin is just flavored vodka, though the flavoring mechanism is different from what most people think of as "flavored vodka" (flavored via distillation rather than addition of artificial flavor).
      - js2 8y ago
        It’s specifically flavored with Juniper berries though right? i.e. All gin is flavored vodka but not all flavored vodka is gin.
        patmcc 8y ago
        I think you can be called gin if you're flavored with any botanicals, doesn't specifically have to be Juniper.
nickles 8y ago
> You can find real balsamic vinegar at virtually any grocery store. Made in Italy in Modena or broader Emilia region, using Lambrusco or Trebbiano grapes, aged at least 12 years, etc. Fully, legitimately balsamic vinegar. It depends on what you consider real. Balsamic Vinegar of Modena allows for "grape must (even if it is not from the provinces of Modena and Reggio Emilia) in percentages between 20 and 90% and wine vinegar between 10 and 80%" and "caramel is allowed, up to 2%". It must be aged in wood containers for a minimum of 60 days, not 12 years. Traditional Balsamic Vinegar on the other hand, which GP is referring to, must be produced exclusively from grape must and aged for a minimum of 12 years. TBV is a clearly distinct product from BVM, and the EU regulates the terms as such. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balsamic_vinegar_of_Modena https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balsamic_vinegar_of_Modena [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_Balsamic_Vinegar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_Balsamic_Vinegar
sametmax 8y ago
You can find real orange juice in any store as well. Most of it is acide orange fruity sugar concentrate diluted in water though.
- dpark 8y ago
  You can buy not-from-concentrate 100% orange juice from multiple brands in most American grocery stores. In upscale grocery stores you can often find pressed-on-site orange juice.
  - sametmax 8y ago
    Yes you can, but that's not the majority. And even pressed juice, something I actually buy regularly, usually tastes so-so. It's ok. It doesn't have to be. If I walk 15 minutes, I can get to the houses of somes friens. Once a year, for a few weaks, they get oranges in their garden. From it you get juice that children will choose over coke, grenadine, etc. Of course, the oranges are ugly, small, annoying to press, and appear only a short period of times in the year. It's not something you want for industrial purpose. When we reach industrial scale, a good deal of quality goes away. Now for a chair, I don't mind. I think society is not worst because of it. But for food, it's a double edge sword. On one hand, we can feed more people. On the other, we have an obesity epidemic because people crave sugary junk food. And I don't think it's their fault.
    - dpark 8y ago
      You have access to all the non-concentrated orange juice you could want, but somehow it's a problem that there's from-concentrate orange juice on the shelf. You also have to have access to orange juice from your friend's tree once a year, so somehow even the non-concentrated orange juice is also a problem because something even better exists in limited quantities. This is snobbery, plain and simple. You're couching your complaints in terms of concern for better food for everyone, but you're actually dismissive of everything that isn't a luxury. Good for you that you can get orange juice from your friend's tree and buy $250 bottles of traditional balsamic vinegar. But these are not attainable for most people, and banning "fake" balsamic and bottled orange juice wouldn't fix that.
archagon 8y ago
DOP balsamic vinegar tastes quite different from anything you’d find on the shelf. Comes in a round bottle that no one else can use and naturally as thick as syrup. I assume this is what OP is referring to. $100–$200 per 100ml, but very much worth a taste (if you can swing it). I know of only a single retailer who has it stocked in the Bay Area. Mostly you have to go to Modena to get it.
- sametmax 8y ago
  Although it is very, very expensive, I have to add that you don't need much of it, and it has a very long shelf life.
  - archagon 8y ago
    Yeah, ours have lasted us half a year to a year! This isn’t the kind of balsamic that you would use as an ingredient, but one that you drip judiciously on meats and cheeses. The taste is very strong.
peterwwillis 8y ago
> You can find real balsamic vinegar at virtually any grocery store ...in a white affluent neighborhood. The real stuff is way too expensive to stock in the Sav-a-lot, to say nothing of even big chain stores. It would be like stocking $100 bottles of champagne.
btilly 8y ago
Given the debacle of how much "Italian olive oil" isn't actually olive oil, I am dubious any product that claims to be both "Italian" and "authentic".

akamaka 8y ago

Just to clarify, there are three categories of balsamic of varying standards, the highest of which is expensive, aged in multiple barrels, and definitely not widely available in supermarkets. That being said, it’s a stretch to call the less expensive Balsamic of Modena “fake”, even though it is not made to the same strict standards and permits some additives. The third category of balsamic condiments made from syrups would be fair to call “fake”. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_Balsamic_Vinegar#TBV_compared_to_BVM_and_other_balsamic_products https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_Balsamic_Vinegar#T...

sametmax 8y ago
Steaks from Mc Donalds burgers are not fake. They are pure beef.
- dpark 8y ago
  What does that even mean?
  - BuildTheRobots 8y ago
    These days, it tends to mean pink goo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanically_separated_meat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanically_separated_meat
    - lozenge 8y ago
      Your link says it has not been sold for human consumption for 15 years. And LFTB has not been used in fast food for five years: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/legal-separation/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/legal-separation/
      - Detect 8y ago
        dude it's "ground beef" https://www.beefmagazine.com/beef-quality/dude-it-s-ground-beef-usda-reclassifies-bpi-s-signature-product https://www.beefmagazine.com/beef-quality/dude-it-s-ground-b... https://newfoodeconomy.org/bpi-pink-slime-ground-beef-usda-reclassifed/ https://newfoodeconomy.org/bpi-pink-slime-ground-beef-usda-r...
        ceejayoz 8y ago
        The USDA only approved that in December. I strongly suspect McDonalds can't change their processes and supply chain quite that quickly, nor are they likely to take the PR hit now.
    - ceejayoz 8y ago
      That page starts with "Not to be confused with Pink slime" and later goes on to say "mechanically separated beef is considered inedible and is prohibited for use as human food". McDonalds doesn't use either one, and stopped using the "pink slime" stuff in 2011: https://www.cnet.com/news/pink-slime-in-burgers-mcdonalds-hires-former-mythbuster-to-find-out/ https://www.cnet.com/news/pink-slime-in-burgers-mcdonalds-hi... > "McDonald's does not use lean beef trimmings treated with ammonia, what some individuals call 'pink slime,' in our burgers, and hasn't since 2011," McDonald's website also stated.
      - justtopost 8y ago
        They don't use ammonia anymore, sure. Thats hardly the only pink slime, or mear glue out there.
- phonypc 8y ago
  That analogy doesn't work on any level. Nobody buys a burger, let alone from McDonalds, expecting a steak. And they are indeed all beef, while cheaper balsamic isn't all grape must.
WorldMaker 8y ago
Which is the sort of market separation you see in Bourbon as well, to spin the analogy back. You can go to any cheap liquor store and find some Bourbon, but the expensive stuff is still hard to find for similar reasons (age, blends vs. single-barrel, etc). It's all still Bourbon, but there's still a quality differential between shelves. There's also "Tennessee Whiskey" which trades age/maturity for charcoal, which should never rightly be confused with Bourbon, but you'll still see a lot of bars place Jack Daniel right next to real Bourbon or much worse consider it their well Bourbon.
- js2 8y ago
  This isn't quite accurate. Tennessee whiskey fully qualifies as bourbon whiskey. It's a marketing decision to call it otherwise. (Which is to say, Tennessee whiskey could be sold as bourbon, but not vice-versa. I believe the same can be said for Gin/Vodka btw.) Details: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourbon_whiskey#Legal_requirements https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourbon_whiskey#Legal_requirem... Also, in my experience, it's a lot easier to find top-grade bourbon than it is to find Traditional Balsamic Vinegar and I say that living somewhere with state-controlled ABC stores (NC).
  - Itaxpica 8y ago
    Technically speaking gin is just flavored vodka, though the flavoring mechanism is different from what most people think of as "flavored vodka" (flavored via distillation rather than addition of artificial flavor).
    - js2 8y ago
      It’s specifically flavored with Juniper berries though right? i.e. All gin is flavored vodka but not all flavored vodka is gin.
      - patmcc 8y ago
        I think you can be called gin if you're flavored with any botanicals, doesn't specifically have to be Juniper.

nickles 8y ago

> You can find real balsamic vinegar at virtually any grocery store. Made in Italy in Modena or broader Emilia region, using Lambrusco or Trebbiano grapes, aged at least 12 years, etc. Fully, legitimately balsamic vinegar. It depends on what you consider real. Balsamic Vinegar of Modena allows for "grape must (even if it is not from the provinces of Modena and Reggio Emilia) in percentages between 20 and 90% and wine vinegar between 10 and 80%" and "caramel is allowed, up to 2%". It must be aged in wood containers for a minimum of 60 days, not 12 years. Traditional Balsamic Vinegar on the other hand, which GP is referring to, must be produced exclusively from grape must and aged for a minimum of 12 years. TBV is a clearly distinct product from BVM, and the EU regulates the terms as such. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balsamic_vinegar_of_Modena https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balsamic_vinegar_of_Modena [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_Balsamic_Vinegar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_Balsamic_Vinegar

sametmax 8y ago

You can find real orange juice in any store as well. Most of it is acide orange fruity sugar concentrate diluted in water though.

dpark 8y ago
You can buy not-from-concentrate 100% orange juice from multiple brands in most American grocery stores. In upscale grocery stores you can often find pressed-on-site orange juice.
- sametmax 8y ago
  Yes you can, but that's not the majority. And even pressed juice, something I actually buy regularly, usually tastes so-so. It's ok. It doesn't have to be. If I walk 15 minutes, I can get to the houses of somes friens. Once a year, for a few weaks, they get oranges in their garden. From it you get juice that children will choose over coke, grenadine, etc. Of course, the oranges are ugly, small, annoying to press, and appear only a short period of times in the year. It's not something you want for industrial purpose. When we reach industrial scale, a good deal of quality goes away. Now for a chair, I don't mind. I think society is not worst because of it. But for food, it's a double edge sword. On one hand, we can feed more people. On the other, we have an obesity epidemic because people crave sugary junk food. And I don't think it's their fault.
  - dpark 8y ago
    You have access to all the non-concentrated orange juice you could want, but somehow it's a problem that there's from-concentrate orange juice on the shelf. You also have to have access to orange juice from your friend's tree once a year, so somehow even the non-concentrated orange juice is also a problem because something even better exists in limited quantities. This is snobbery, plain and simple. You're couching your complaints in terms of concern for better food for everyone, but you're actually dismissive of everything that isn't a luxury. Good for you that you can get orange juice from your friend's tree and buy $250 bottles of traditional balsamic vinegar. But these are not attainable for most people, and banning "fake" balsamic and bottled orange juice wouldn't fix that.

archagon 8y ago

DOP balsamic vinegar tastes quite different from anything you’d find on the shelf. Comes in a round bottle that no one else can use and naturally as thick as syrup. I assume this is what OP is referring to. $100–$200 per 100ml, but very much worth a taste (if you can swing it). I know of only a single retailer who has it stocked in the Bay Area. Mostly you have to go to Modena to get it.

sametmax 8y ago
Although it is very, very expensive, I have to add that you don't need much of it, and it has a very long shelf life.
- archagon 8y ago
  Yeah, ours have lasted us half a year to a year! This isn’t the kind of balsamic that you would use as an ingredient, but one that you drip judiciously on meats and cheeses. The taste is very strong.

peterwwillis 8y ago

> You can find real balsamic vinegar at virtually any grocery store ...in a white affluent neighborhood. The real stuff is way too expensive to stock in the Sav-a-lot, to say nothing of even big chain stores. It would be like stocking $100 bottles of champagne.

btilly 8y ago

Given the debacle of how much "Italian olive oil" isn't actually olive oil, I am dubious any product that claims to be both "Italian" and "authentic".