6 ms·

EU elections 2019: We will only vote for politicians who vote against Article 13

81 points by cabraca 8y ago

beqcq 8y ago
I don't like Article 13, but I don't believe there are many people whose only or even top priority is Article 13. There are many issues to vote on.
- swongel 8y ago
  I'm actually on the fence on article 13, I actually like the fact that commercial operators will be liable for the content on their platform under art. 13. For me, article 11 is way more important, making publishers liable for content on someone else's server, that's just insane.
lostjohnny 8y ago
In Italy that would mean vote for Salvini's Lega An anti Euro party, anti EU, anti migration, pro Italian Exit, racist, omophobic, whose leader, who's also interior minister of Italy, has been wearing neo-fascist brands in public, hugging a drug dealer hooligan or recently visited a man who shot in the back an unarmed alleged thief romanian and killed him, declaring him a martyr who deserves pardon. Or their allies, the 5 star movement, who are just incompetent jackasses. Thanks, but NO thanks. BTW they are only opposing to article 13 because Putin asked them to do so. Italian original article: http://espresso.repubblica.it/plus/articoli/2019/02/21/news/tre-milioni-matteo-salvini-russia-1.331924 http://espresso.repubblica.it/plus/articoli/2019/02/21/news/... In english: https://euobserver.com/foreign/144253 https://euobserver.com/foreign/144253
- dexen 8y ago
  >they are only opposing to article 13 because Putin asked them to do so The technical term for what happened here is "jumping the shark" [1]. Accusations of this or that worldview or tendencies is one thing, but injecting conspiracy theories into serious discussion is entirely different ballpark. Especially when it's already well documented how terrible Article 13 is. -- [1] https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=jumping%20the%20shark https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=jumping%20th...
  - lostjohnny 8y ago
    It's not. There are many proofs about contacts between Lega or 5 star movement and Putin's emissaries. Unfortunately many of them are in Italian. Just look for Jacobo Iacoboni articles, that might have been translated and published in english. His book 'the experiment' is also worth reading.
    - mcv 8y ago
      I don't doubt that Lega and 5 star have a connection with Putin, but what is Putin's interest in opposing Article 13? If anything, I'd expect him to support it, hoping to ruin European internet access.
- kriive 8y ago
  You are not required to pledge which politician you are going to vote in the next EU elections. The purpose for this is to facilitate contact between you and a local politician who has not publicly declared his/her vote intentions on article 13 yet. Your job is to convince him/her to vote against article 13. I understand that the title is a little misleading, but come on! P.S. I'm italian too.
  - lostjohnny 8y ago
    I will never vote for somebody who's opposing to a free EU Besides, as a long time activist for internet freedom, I agree that something like article 13 is urgently needed. There is no freedom without protection. What EU is trying to do is to protect the small local EU actors against the tech giants from outside EU.
    - jononor 8y ago
      How is Article 13 helping small local EU actors?
      - lostjohnny 8y ago
        > Platforms run by startups (small and micro-sized businesses) are exempted from the law. > Licenses that platforms take out cover uploads by their users, as long as they act non-commercially or “don’t generate significant revenues” > Uploaders can complain about blocked uploads and request impartial, human review. (it means real justice, not Facebook's justice or Twitter justice or youTube's justice) Believe it or not, the platforms are already liable in case of legal infringement, it's not really different from before. Right now YouTube just get away with it because "we have too much content to check". The small players don't because, well, they are too small to even get a chance to fight.
        jononor 8y ago
        No, platforms run by startups are not exempted. The criteria for exception are: Available to the public for less than 3 years AND Annual turnover below €10 million AND Fewer than 5 million unique monthly visitors So any "for-profit" site which is more than 3 years old will need to implement upload filters.
- piokoch 8y ago
  "BTW they are only opposing to article 13 because Putin asked them to do so" I am really curious why Putin would care about that? How this law affects Russia?
  - lostjohnny 8y ago
    Easy: they are winning the information warfare and don't want to be stopped. Fake news and propaganda are one obvious target of article 13.
  - ocdtrekkie 8y ago
    FWIW, at least in the US, Russia has been seen promoting both sides of conflicts that get people riled up politically online. The goal may not be "to support Article 13", but "cause discord and strife regarding Article 13".
    - RobertoG 8y ago
      Putin is doing a really bad job, nobody cares.
      - mcv 8y ago
        He was pretty successful with the Brexit, though.
- YinglingLight 8y ago
  You sold me
- Cthulhu_ 8y ago
  Do you get the option to vote blank? I'd go for that instead; choosing the lesser evil (or greater in this case?) should never be mandatory.
  - lostjohnny 8y ago
    I'm not sure what I'm voting yet, but I'm sure I'll vote for a stronger EU, not a weaker EU. The blank option is of course possible, but I do not like it. I consider it the lesser evil.
marcrosoft 8y ago
You must accept cookies to view this message. How about vote no on the EU altogether. This entity is too large, too powerful and has a track record of passing terrible laws around internet usage.
- korijn 8y ago
  I can access the internet with no additional cost throughout the EU thanks to them, that's not a terrible law around internet usage?
- lostjohnny 8y ago
  > How about vote no on the EU altogether How about you just leave EU? It's full of countries out there that are waiting for you and don't care about protecting your data. You're free.
  - beqcq 8y ago
    He will stay where he is, and he will vote for politicians who either support or oppose staying in the EU, as it's his right.
  - marcrosoft 8y ago
    That's what I'm promoting. Not individuals like myself but countries should leave the EU so individuals can have more freedom.
- arghwhat 8y ago
  Not many governments have a good track record with regards to regulating IT. My local government (Denmark) cannot even respect basic human rights in their IT laws, and even when said laws are deemed a human rights violation, they refuse to remove them, instead leaving them in place while claiming they'll be "revised". There are also many other issues where EU does better than IT. Food safety, environment regulations and trade agreements, just to mention a few. While smaller units are almost universally better (imagine how different history would have been if the provinces of China had been independent countries), but does mean that each individual country must make many more agreements on their own, and have to shape their own regulations for things like food safety and environmental efforts, which might not turn out as well if they are not forced by the collective.
ocdtrekkie 8y ago
Can we push political pledges onto the top of HN? This isn't a news article or anything of substance.
lagadu 8y ago
Ugh, yet another bullshit website trying to turn people into single-issue voters on an election that's far more complex and wide-reaching than just who bears the responsibility of content filtering. Single-issue voting hurts everyone including yourself.
- tinus_hn 8y ago
  If they at least turn people into voters they’d have achieved a lot. Most people don’t care about European politics at all, that’s why they get away with ridiculous crap like this article.
- alexandercrohde 8y ago
  I could not disagree more. Regardless of the article itself, I think this mechanism is the future of citizens taking control of politics. The point is, by a large group of people picking their most important issue, and pledging to be single-issue publicly, it puts REAL and VISIBLE pressure on those politicians to represent them on those issues. Once the issue is fixed, people can move on to the next-most important issue they would like to be represented on.
- Mirioron 8y ago
  But article 13 is a single issue thing for me. If article 13 passes then nothing else the EU can do will ever make up for it other than repealing it. Repealing anything in the EU is virtually impossible though. I think the long-term implications of article 13 are bad enough that if it were financially possible for me, I would move out of the EU. A free and open internet is one of the few nice things in life for me.
- mcv 8y ago
  There are multiple parties opposing Article 13. You can still let other issues determine that choice. But surely internet freedom is a really big issue on the EU level. I can't think of any other current issue that's so clear cut. Well, Brexit, I suppose, but that's mostly up to the UK.
scarejunba 8y ago
Hoo boy, ContentID for the Internet. Man, once upon a time I remember when we'd make a website for our friends and then just share it with more people if they were interested. Everyone would accept that this is a caveat emptor product and go along with it. This particular one has exemptions for small groups but we know the cost of compliance is non-zero. When I have to hire a lawyer for my personal website, I'm already in trouble. I guess we just need to maxmind our way out of the EU. So be it.
- Mirioron 8y ago
  >Man, once upon a time I remember when we'd make a website for our friends and then just share it with more people if they were interested. You can't just do that right now anyway. GDPR already puts a bunch of burdens on you that you must handle.
  - scarejunba 8y ago
    Yup, I definitely count that as a recent development that interferes.

81 points by cabraca 8y ago

I don't like Article 13, but I don't believe there are many people whose only or even top priority is Article 13. There are many issues to vote on.

swongel 8y ago
I'm actually on the fence on article 13, I actually like the fact that commercial operators will be liable for the content on their platform under art. 13. For me, article 11 is way more important, making publishers liable for content on someone else's server, that's just insane.

lostjohnny 8y ago

In Italy that would mean vote for Salvini's Lega An anti Euro party, anti EU, anti migration, pro Italian Exit, racist, omophobic, whose leader, who's also interior minister of Italy, has been wearing neo-fascist brands in public, hugging a drug dealer hooligan or recently visited a man who shot in the back an unarmed alleged thief romanian and killed him, declaring him a martyr who deserves pardon. Or their allies, the 5 star movement, who are just incompetent jackasses. Thanks, but NO thanks. BTW they are only opposing to article 13 because Putin asked them to do so. Italian original article: http://espresso.repubblica.it/plus/articoli/2019/02/21/news/tre-milioni-matteo-salvini-russia-1.331924 http://espresso.repubblica.it/plus/articoli/2019/02/21/news/... In english: https://euobserver.com/foreign/144253 https://euobserver.com/foreign/144253

dexen 8y ago
>they are only opposing to article 13 because Putin asked them to do so The technical term for what happened here is "jumping the shark" [1]. Accusations of this or that worldview or tendencies is one thing, but injecting conspiracy theories into serious discussion is entirely different ballpark. Especially when it's already well documented how terrible Article 13 is. -- [1] https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=jumping%20the%20shark https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=jumping%20th...
- lostjohnny 8y ago
  It's not. There are many proofs about contacts between Lega or 5 star movement and Putin's emissaries. Unfortunately many of them are in Italian. Just look for Jacobo Iacoboni articles, that might have been translated and published in english. His book 'the experiment' is also worth reading.
  - mcv 8y ago
    I don't doubt that Lega and 5 star have a connection with Putin, but what is Putin's interest in opposing Article 13? If anything, I'd expect him to support it, hoping to ruin European internet access.
kriive 8y ago
You are not required to pledge which politician you are going to vote in the next EU elections. The purpose for this is to facilitate contact between you and a local politician who has not publicly declared his/her vote intentions on article 13 yet. Your job is to convince him/her to vote against article 13. I understand that the title is a little misleading, but come on! P.S. I'm italian too.
- lostjohnny 8y ago
  I will never vote for somebody who's opposing to a free EU Besides, as a long time activist for internet freedom, I agree that something like article 13 is urgently needed. There is no freedom without protection. What EU is trying to do is to protect the small local EU actors against the tech giants from outside EU.
  - jononor 8y ago
    How is Article 13 helping small local EU actors?
    - lostjohnny 8y ago
      > Platforms run by startups (small and micro-sized businesses) are exempted from the law. > Licenses that platforms take out cover uploads by their users, as long as they act non-commercially or “don’t generate significant revenues” > Uploaders can complain about blocked uploads and request impartial, human review. (it means real justice, not Facebook's justice or Twitter justice or youTube's justice) Believe it or not, the platforms are already liable in case of legal infringement, it's not really different from before. Right now YouTube just get away with it because "we have too much content to check". The small players don't because, well, they are too small to even get a chance to fight.
      - jononor 8y ago
        No, platforms run by startups are not exempted. The criteria for exception are: Available to the public for less than 3 years AND Annual turnover below €10 million AND Fewer than 5 million unique monthly visitors So any "for-profit" site which is more than 3 years old will need to implement upload filters.
piokoch 8y ago
"BTW they are only opposing to article 13 because Putin asked them to do so" I am really curious why Putin would care about that? How this law affects Russia?
- lostjohnny 8y ago
  Easy: they are winning the information warfare and don't want to be stopped. Fake news and propaganda are one obvious target of article 13.
- ocdtrekkie 8y ago
  FWIW, at least in the US, Russia has been seen promoting both sides of conflicts that get people riled up politically online. The goal may not be "to support Article 13", but "cause discord and strife regarding Article 13".
  - RobertoG 8y ago
    Putin is doing a really bad job, nobody cares.
    - mcv 8y ago
      He was pretty successful with the Brexit, though.
YinglingLight 8y ago
You sold me
Cthulhu_ 8y ago
Do you get the option to vote blank? I'd go for that instead; choosing the lesser evil (or greater in this case?) should never be mandatory.
- lostjohnny 8y ago
  I'm not sure what I'm voting yet, but I'm sure I'll vote for a stronger EU, not a weaker EU. The blank option is of course possible, but I do not like it. I consider it the lesser evil.

marcrosoft 8y ago

You must accept cookies to view this message. How about vote no on the EU altogether. This entity is too large, too powerful and has a track record of passing terrible laws around internet usage.

korijn 8y ago
I can access the internet with no additional cost throughout the EU thanks to them, that's not a terrible law around internet usage?
lostjohnny 8y ago
> How about vote no on the EU altogether How about you just leave EU? It's full of countries out there that are waiting for you and don't care about protecting your data. You're free.
- beqcq 8y ago
  He will stay where he is, and he will vote for politicians who either support or oppose staying in the EU, as it's his right.
- marcrosoft 8y ago
  That's what I'm promoting. Not individuals like myself but countries should leave the EU so individuals can have more freedom.
arghwhat 8y ago
Not many governments have a good track record with regards to regulating IT. My local government (Denmark) cannot even respect basic human rights in their IT laws, and even when said laws are deemed a human rights violation, they refuse to remove them, instead leaving them in place while claiming they'll be "revised". There are also many other issues where EU does better than IT. Food safety, environment regulations and trade agreements, just to mention a few. While smaller units are almost universally better (imagine how different history would have been if the provinces of China had been independent countries), but does mean that each individual country must make many more agreements on their own, and have to shape their own regulations for things like food safety and environmental efforts, which might not turn out as well if they are not forced by the collective.

ocdtrekkie 8y ago

Can we push political pledges onto the top of HN? This isn't a news article or anything of substance.

lagadu 8y ago

Ugh, yet another bullshit website trying to turn people into single-issue voters on an election that's far more complex and wide-reaching than just who bears the responsibility of content filtering. Single-issue voting hurts everyone including yourself.

tinus_hn 8y ago
If they at least turn people into voters they’d have achieved a lot. Most people don’t care about European politics at all, that’s why they get away with ridiculous crap like this article.
alexandercrohde 8y ago
I could not disagree more. Regardless of the article itself, I think this mechanism is the future of citizens taking control of politics. The point is, by a large group of people picking their most important issue, and pledging to be single-issue publicly, it puts REAL and VISIBLE pressure on those politicians to represent them on those issues. Once the issue is fixed, people can move on to the next-most important issue they would like to be represented on.
Mirioron 8y ago
But article 13 is a single issue thing for me. If article 13 passes then nothing else the EU can do will ever make up for it other than repealing it. Repealing anything in the EU is virtually impossible though. I think the long-term implications of article 13 are bad enough that if it were financially possible for me, I would move out of the EU. A free and open internet is one of the few nice things in life for me.
mcv 8y ago
There are multiple parties opposing Article 13. You can still let other issues determine that choice. But surely internet freedom is a really big issue on the EU level. I can't think of any other current issue that's so clear cut. Well, Brexit, I suppose, but that's mostly up to the UK.

scarejunba 8y ago

Hoo boy, ContentID for the Internet. Man, once upon a time I remember when we'd make a website for our friends and then just share it with more people if they were interested. Everyone would accept that this is a caveat emptor product and go along with it. This particular one has exemptions for small groups but we know the cost of compliance is non-zero. When I have to hire a lawyer for my personal website, I'm already in trouble. I guess we just need to maxmind our way out of the EU. So be it.

Mirioron 8y ago
>Man, once upon a time I remember when we'd make a website for our friends and then just share it with more people if they were interested. You can't just do that right now anyway. GDPR already puts a bunch of burdens on you that you must handle.
- scarejunba 8y ago
  Yup, I definitely count that as a recent development that interferes.