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This makes me wonder what someone with less computer experience would do, ie if you're not a former computer professional. Sure, open source makes everything r
by mhd 8y ago
This makes me wonder what someone with less computer experience would do, ie if you're not a former computer professional.
Sure, open source makes everything rather accessible from a monetary point of view, but you still have to learn things. I almost feel like in the past there were more attempts at making this accessible to the end user, HyperCard, dbase etc, even just BASIC on your 8-bit machine.
Nowadays? Excel/Google Sheets for the most simple case, probably, but if you have to transfer data from/into there or present it differently? Web sites and GUIs aren't that easy, but it's what the users know.
If your point of interaction with a computer is more bare-bones (eg a BASIC/DOS prompt), solutions feel closer, easier to grasp.
- crispyambulance 8y ago> This makes me wonder what someone with less computer experience would do, ie if you're not a former computer professional. One would simply make bread the same way as it has been done for 1000 years! Humans can understand ratios, write stuff down, plan for the future, etc all without org-mode in emacs, databases, and sometimes without even a calculator.
- pdcawley 8y agoYup. Bakeries have been run using a pen and paper daybook and the master baker’s skill for centuries. But the calculations are still a pain in the arse, so automating that is a big win. The Bread Matters spreadsheet I based the database schema on was made by someone who was a baker, not a programmer, and for a fixed set of recipes, it’s brilliant. If I hadn’t known the rudiments of RDBMS design I’d have bitten the bullet, extended the sheet and grumbled every time I had to add a new formula.
- biztos 8y agoDown the street from me is a baker so good he doesn't even have any signage, you have to know it's there -- the line out the door at certain times might be a hint -- and as far as I can tell, other than punching in the prices in the minimum cash register required by law, they keep no records at the point of sale. I don't know if he keeps spreadsheets or even databases elsewhere -- I hope he does, as he's an amazing baker and works his butt off, and I hope he makes tons of money. But I really don't think he has any record of, say, whether Rye or Spelt sells out faster. (It all sells out every day.) So I wonder if there's some level of artistry where optimization might just be an annoying distraction.
- tyingq 8y agoThere's a fair amount of low code type web application makers. Google's AppMaker, Quickbase, Zoho Creator, Knack, Airtable, etc. No real comparable open source equivalent for these types of things yet.
- mikemac 8y agoi'm not a programmer and i was able to string together an SMS RSVP system for my floor hockey league with zapier, google sheets and twilio.
- oftenwrong 8y agoI would be interested in a write-up of that.
- 0x445442 8y agoCan't remember where I read the story, Steve Yegge perhaps. But they were talking about how where they worked secretaries actually used Emacs apps developed by the IT department and, over time, the secretaries started to extend the apps with Elisp.
- ken 8y agoMillions of people used WP5, with its cryptic codes and huge keyboard overlays. I don’t believe that’s any easier than Emacs (or HTML). People can figure things out, when they have to.
- gmfawcett 8y agoCryptic, yes, but discoverable! Recently I was trying to help someone fix their bizarrely broken Word document, and I would have given my right arm for "F5 Reveal Codes."
- mkesper 8y agoEmacs is quite discoverable, too. Spacemacs even more, I think.
- TeMPOraL 8y agoYup. It's called a "self-documenting editor" for a reason :). From built-in help on every command, function, variable and keybinding, through apropos and tutorial, through a full-length manual - all available off-line, in the editor - it's easy to get your bearings around using and customizing Emacs. That is, once you adopt the old-school, pre-web notion of software actually having documentation.
- roel_v 8y agoIt's right there in the toolbar, the "P"-ish looking icon.
- 8y ago
- projectramo 8y agoGoogle Sheets with Google Forms (or whatever it may be called) for some users. Or, without internet, Excel. The spreadsheet is sort of one of those insane breakthroughs where it really makes programming (functional at that) really easy to grasp. And you can iteratively and intuitively add hundreds of variables and logic gates.
- maire 8y ago> Google Sheets with Google Forms (or whatever it may be called) for some users. That was my reaction too. I have a google sheet for bread that allows for different batch sizes and displays out baking instructions in english. This is what a cell looks like: ="mix "&D3*B$1&" grams of "&C3 I can look at the sheet on my phone when making bread. Sheets also now caches off line.
- pdcawley 8y agoYup. The spreadsheet is an amazing innovation, I just find all the repetition when adding something that should just be data to be monumentally frustrating. And I have no idea how to make a sheet that copes with orders for Friday and Saturday when a when each batch takes three calendar days. I suppose making a new copy of the basic sheet for each batch would do the job.
- kome 8y ago> I almost feel like in the past there were more attempts at making this accessible to the end user, HyperCard, dbase etc, even just BASIC on your 8-bit machine. Oh for sure, look at web: we transformed something simple and beautiful like html+css in a complete shit show. Also, I don't feel like the new programming languages are easier then COBOL or BASIC, quite the contrary. We are making technology more complicated for no reason. Or at least, at the time we had the very complicated stuff and stuff that simplified complexity. Think about S and SPSS. Now we have complicated and very complicated. We are giving less creative possibilities to the end user: making them consumers, first of all. Other example VB6.
- bitexploder 8y agoI still miss VB6. It was a beautiful tool and easy to make GUIs with. I still can’t handle writing native GUIs without a good WYSIWYG editor. Delphi was cool, but Object Pascal?! Many people still swear by Delphi and it’s because when your code is UI focused Delphi makes that super easy.
- vetinari 8y agoObject Pascal vs Visual Basic? That's not even a competition, Object Pascal, of course. At least it was somewhat internally consistent.
- bitexploder 8y agoAgree. It was mostly nostalgia. That is just what I learned on. Object pascal was (is) a real language at least
- pault 8y agoIMO it's more a product of people expecting more from software. It's no longer enough to have something that works; it has to work and be pretty and user friendly.
- TeMPOraL 8y ago
- mruts 8y agoI know a lot of financial analysts who don’t know how to “program” but develop incredibly complicated Turing complete excel models regularly. Excel is a very flexible tool and can be leveraged to great effect.
- perigrin 8y agoI know for a fact that up until around 2006 the official US Treasury curve for one of the big financial reporting firms was created/maintained on an Excel spreadsheet that was one step away from becoming sentient and asking us if we wanted to go get high.
- singingfish 8y agoThere's a decent size (albeit a little bit - but only a little bit - specialist) wholesaler in sydney. The boss is a tech enthusiastic, and the whole thing is somewhat glued together with various bits of perl and other stuff.