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Most normal people decide at some point that math is not for them in order not to embarrass themselves by claiming competence in a domain in which they are not

Most normal people decide at some point that math is not for them in order not to embarrass themselves by claiming competence in a domain in which they are not confident at all. And hence, compared to nerds or seriously talented individuals who can confidently claim this status, they never spend much time on math and eventually seriously lack skills even in simple logical reasoning. This is basically math anxiety. Nerds, on the other hand, are incentivized to gain social status via math skills as a potential escape of their low status. I think this mainly explains the author's observations that these two skills are not correlated very much, basically an introversion vs extroversion polarization based on social expectations and incentives. Math is also intimidating, so I'd imagine someone with some experience in it also develops overall higher inhibition and hence is a worse verbalizer. There is a huge literature on the relation between logical reasoning and verbalizing, which the author sadly ignores.

wccrawford 8y ago
>Nerds, on the other hand, are incentivized to gain social status via math skills as a potential escape of their low status. This is certainly not how I approached math, and it's the first I've heard anyone say it, even. Instead, I'm good at math because I enjoyed it. It's simple and logical and my mind worked really well in that way. There was never anything standing in my way of learning math, so I always just picked up any new math easily. Later, because I was already so good at math (and so many people were bad at it) I sought out more math courses as a way for more easy A grades. Never was it a conscious effort to set up my career or social status.
- CarelessSmirch 8y ago
  Some individuals are perhaps purely intrinsicly motivated, but I think it's a very tiny minority. I also think there is a good chance that intrinsic motivation itself is a status enhancing adaptation, evolved by runaway selection. So ultimately, you are executing this adaptation whether you want or not, much like this fish carefully creating beautiful patterns in the sand, not knowing why he is doing it. It's all about sex. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B91tozyQs9M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B91tozyQs9M https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisherian_runaway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisherian_runaway
  - whatshisface 8y ago
    If nerds were pursuing math to get status they would quit when they got absolutely no status.
    - CarelessSmirch 8y ago
      Quitting is embarassing, certainly often locally a downward slope on the status landscape.
      - intertextuality 8y ago
        To put it quite frankly, your position is entirely wrong, and you are doubling down on an even weirder position. I also have never even heard of someone just pursuing math "to get acceptance as a nerd". Being good at math gives you no status in life. People are proudly anti-intellectual when it comes to math, so the most you'll get if you're quite good at at math is "oh wow, that's cool. next topic". People who really like math, simply like math, despite it not winning them any social favors for the most part. Mathematics is quite interesting and beautiful in its own way, so for you to say it's mostly "out of wanting to escape their low status" is both rude and uninformed. --- Also, it's true that quitting doesn't do you any favors, but people quit things all the time. Especially math. Or new years resolutions. It's definitely not a tenable argument as to why people would stick with math.
    - Faark 8y ago
      But they do get status. With their teachers. With their parents. And, probably the most important, with their peers, aka other nerds. Damn I'd even expect most "cool kids" having more respect for someone better at math (all else being equal), even if their social context won't allow them to show this in any form.
      - wccrawford 8y ago
        Being good at math got me some "kudos" occasionally, but nothing like being good at almost anything else. Art (music, writing, singing) was way better to be good at. Even other nerdy things like spelling bees and programmer got way more acclaim than math. Math, instead, got mostly derision from other kids and little to no respect from teachers or parents. No, "cool kids" never had even an ounce of respect for math nerds. If they secretly had any respect for them, they certainly never showed it. And what's the point of trying to gain respect that nobody expresses? It's certainly not something that would be worth pursuing just to get that respect.

wccrawford 8y ago

>Nerds, on the other hand, are incentivized to gain social status via math skills as a potential escape of their low status. This is certainly not how I approached math, and it's the first I've heard anyone say it, even. Instead, I'm good at math because I enjoyed it. It's simple and logical and my mind worked really well in that way. There was never anything standing in my way of learning math, so I always just picked up any new math easily. Later, because I was already so good at math (and so many people were bad at it) I sought out more math courses as a way for more easy A grades. Never was it a conscious effort to set up my career or social status.

CarelessSmirch 8y ago
Some individuals are perhaps purely intrinsicly motivated, but I think it's a very tiny minority. I also think there is a good chance that intrinsic motivation itself is a status enhancing adaptation, evolved by runaway selection. So ultimately, you are executing this adaptation whether you want or not, much like this fish carefully creating beautiful patterns in the sand, not knowing why he is doing it. It's all about sex. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B91tozyQs9M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B91tozyQs9M https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisherian_runaway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisherian_runaway
- whatshisface 8y ago
  If nerds were pursuing math to get status they would quit when they got absolutely no status.
  - CarelessSmirch 8y ago
    Quitting is embarassing, certainly often locally a downward slope on the status landscape.
    - intertextuality 8y ago
      To put it quite frankly, your position is entirely wrong, and you are doubling down on an even weirder position. I also have never even heard of someone just pursuing math "to get acceptance as a nerd". Being good at math gives you no status in life. People are proudly anti-intellectual when it comes to math, so the most you'll get if you're quite good at at math is "oh wow, that's cool. next topic". People who really like math, simply like math, despite it not winning them any social favors for the most part. Mathematics is quite interesting and beautiful in its own way, so for you to say it's mostly "out of wanting to escape their low status" is both rude and uninformed. --- Also, it's true that quitting doesn't do you any favors, but people quit things all the time. Especially math. Or new years resolutions. It's definitely not a tenable argument as to why people would stick with math.
  - Faark 8y ago
    But they do get status. With their teachers. With their parents. And, probably the most important, with their peers, aka other nerds. Damn I'd even expect most "cool kids" having more respect for someone better at math (all else being equal), even if their social context won't allow them to show this in any form.
    - wccrawford 8y ago
      Being good at math got me some "kudos" occasionally, but nothing like being good at almost anything else. Art (music, writing, singing) was way better to be good at. Even other nerdy things like spelling bees and programmer got way more acclaim than math. Math, instead, got mostly derision from other kids and little to no respect from teachers or parents. No, "cool kids" never had even an ounce of respect for math nerds. If they secretly had any respect for them, they certainly never showed it. And what's the point of trying to gain respect that nobody expresses? It's certainly not something that would be worth pursuing just to get that respect.