3 ms·

They are very young, nice kids, who have started from a pure aws standpoint. They started with AWS tutorials. These tutorials did not teach the full unix envi

by Tistel 8y ago

They are very young, nice kids, who have started from a pure aws standpoint. They started with AWS tutorials. These tutorials did not teach the full unix environment. The gaps in their knowledge is like the grande canyon. If they just read the O'reilly book on linux: http://shop.oreilly.com/product/9780596154493.do http://shop.oreilly.com/product/9780596154493.do. they would be miles ahead. But, their only interest is docker/kubernetes. Those technologies are great, but, they simply have massive gaps in their knowledge of the fundementals. They don't seem to like reading technical books from cover to cover. So they just read tutorials far enough to get the system started. Then they cut/paste from stackoverflow when problems arise. If that does not work, they blame the tools ("couched is too slow!"). Again, its not their fault, just the new dev culture. I freely admit I am an old fogey.

mancerayder 8y ago
We agree. I interviewed at (a fast growing real estate startup) and as an old guy, I highlighted my vast enterprise Linux engineering experience. The response from management was, oh, that's nice but doesn't matter here. I can teach people the command line in one day. This is a big AWS and exclusively Linux shop. What do you say to that?
- heydonovan 8y ago
  From my experience, the hardcore Unix folks should stick to jobs that highlights that type of knowledge. If you join an AWS shop, you're never going to dig into low level things like the proc filesystem, and the arcane knowledge of knowing every single tool just isn't used. I've gone from remoting into machines on the daily, to not using SSH for almost a year now. Just depends on the job I suppose. Went from having knowledge of all the different signals, and getting really good at tcpdump/gdb, to just writing Terraform/CloudFormation scripts, and nuking an instance from orbit if there were any issues with it. Such a different workflow.
  - mancerayder 8y ago
    Yes, BUT: Grey-haired Linux folks who've hammered on complex, changing, sometimes esoteric systems in different companies with unique challenges COMBINED with having to have learned a programming language, to view these people as obsolete is an ultimate folly of youth here in IT. To suggest that it's all different now, your Shell/Perl/Webserver/database/caching/networking experience somehow has nothing on Python/Terraform/AWS/Docker really shows inexperience of hiring managers. I learned both, and I can tell you AWS+someyaml+Python are MUCH easier than any of the stuff I listed above. Yet, there's a new generation of hiring managers that believes otherwise. Today at work I had to explain absolutely basic DNS to someone. I dunno, call me skeptical about this new paradigm business. The paradigms look awfully familiar.
- anongraddebt 8y ago
  I'm on the business side, and am relatively young. Have dabbled with computer stuff since middle school (built desktops with my Dad, internet privileges revoked for a year in middle school for hacking the Oracle system, have run linux on my non-work laptop for the past ~5 years, etc.), but never pursued serious study whether solo or in a formal setting. Both with tech and non-tech related learning, my autodidact process (largely determined by growing up through the late 90's and early aughts) was the following: (1) Google search or Amazon search (2) Blitz-read some website I thought might be relevant from the Google search results or Blitz-read for author and subject matter info. I thought might be relevant from the Amazon search results (3) Stop at (2) because I had pieced together a solution or had gleaned a sufficient amount of information; or repeat (1) and (2) until piecing together a solution or gleaning... This rather clunky but speedy (notice I did not say efficient) process likely accounts for far more of my knowledge and skill base then I'd care to admit to friends and colleagues. All this to say: management's response to you is representative of a default mode of thinking determined (to a non-trivial degree) by the environment in which they grew up. This default mode of thinking has a number of short-term benefits, but often results in many long-term headaches. Indeed, you really can teach someone the command line in a day. However, this someone will end up doing stuff I do with the command line, such as using ls 100x more than is necessary or almost always changing directories one at a time.
- xfitm3 8y ago
  “Thanks for your time. Have a nice day.”

by Tistel 8y ago

mancerayder 8y ago

We agree. I interviewed at (a fast growing real estate startup) and as an old guy, I highlighted my vast enterprise Linux engineering experience. The response from management was, oh, that's nice but doesn't matter here. I can teach people the command line in one day. This is a big AWS and exclusively Linux shop. What do you say to that?

heydonovan 8y ago
From my experience, the hardcore Unix folks should stick to jobs that highlights that type of knowledge. If you join an AWS shop, you're never going to dig into low level things like the proc filesystem, and the arcane knowledge of knowing every single tool just isn't used. I've gone from remoting into machines on the daily, to not using SSH for almost a year now. Just depends on the job I suppose. Went from having knowledge of all the different signals, and getting really good at tcpdump/gdb, to just writing Terraform/CloudFormation scripts, and nuking an instance from orbit if there were any issues with it. Such a different workflow.
- mancerayder 8y ago
  Yes, BUT: Grey-haired Linux folks who've hammered on complex, changing, sometimes esoteric systems in different companies with unique challenges COMBINED with having to have learned a programming language, to view these people as obsolete is an ultimate folly of youth here in IT. To suggest that it's all different now, your Shell/Perl/Webserver/database/caching/networking experience somehow has nothing on Python/Terraform/AWS/Docker really shows inexperience of hiring managers. I learned both, and I can tell you AWS+someyaml+Python are MUCH easier than any of the stuff I listed above. Yet, there's a new generation of hiring managers that believes otherwise. Today at work I had to explain absolutely basic DNS to someone. I dunno, call me skeptical about this new paradigm business. The paradigms look awfully familiar.
anongraddebt 8y ago
I'm on the business side, and am relatively young. Have dabbled with computer stuff since middle school (built desktops with my Dad, internet privileges revoked for a year in middle school for hacking the Oracle system, have run linux on my non-work laptop for the past ~5 years, etc.), but never pursued serious study whether solo or in a formal setting. Both with tech and non-tech related learning, my autodidact process (largely determined by growing up through the late 90's and early aughts) was the following: (1) Google search or Amazon search (2) Blitz-read some website I thought might be relevant from the Google search results or Blitz-read for author and subject matter info. I thought might be relevant from the Amazon search results (3) Stop at (2) because I had pieced together a solution or had gleaned a sufficient amount of information; or repeat (1) and (2) until piecing together a solution or gleaning... This rather clunky but speedy (notice I did not say efficient) process likely accounts for far more of my knowledge and skill base then I'd care to admit to friends and colleagues. All this to say: management's response to you is representative of a default mode of thinking determined (to a non-trivial degree) by the environment in which they grew up. This default mode of thinking has a number of short-term benefits, but often results in many long-term headaches. Indeed, you really can teach someone the command line in a day. However, this someone will end up doing stuff I do with the command line, such as using ls 100x more than is necessary or almost always changing directories one at a time.
xfitm3 8y ago
“Thanks for your time. Have a nice day.”