5 ms·

This isn't just about having shelter, this is about having it in Berlin specifically. Who is entitled to that? The answer can't be "everyone".

pell 8y ago
So people with money are entitled to it then?
- ghostwriter 8y ago
  There's no entitlement in trades between landlords and people with money - everything happens on mutually beneficial terms. Landlords own property by the right of their investment into it, which was also a mutually beneficial transaction between them and the developers who built it and got rewarded for their work.
  - pell 8y ago
    Yes, these are the rules of a free market. But if a society or a governing body has additional priorities, rules can be added to such a framework. So, in the end it actually is a question about entitlement. Is a landlord entitled to rent to the highest bidder or not. I'm not saying I'm necessarily entirely against this concept, but I doubt it should be the default situation.
- berlinerluft 8y ago
  They are not entitled to it, they PAY for it. Amazing concept, I know.
  - pell 8y ago
    I don't understand why you need to be obnoxiously sarcastic here. There are quite a few situations where governments set limits on how much a good can be priced at. It definitely is entitlement to be able to rent to the highest bidder.
    - berlinerluft 8y ago
      It's only entitlement if you come from a socialist perspective and think property is a frivolous concept.
      - pell 8y ago
        Germany - like many other countries - is not a libertarian state. Pricing caps are not new here, underpricing and overpricing are defined and limited in certain scenarios and for a number of goods like doctor or lawyer fees, medication, books, your ISP, etc. Obviously one can debate such decisions and their merit but if you simply reduce this to having a "frivolous concept of property" it's difficult to have a conversation with you because it seems like you're choosing to be destructive instead of using arguments.
        berlinerluft 8y ago
        To simplify: to be entitled to something and to pay for it are some very different things. I'd argue that somebody who claims wealthy people paying for stuff is the same as entitlement is the person who is actually destructive. As for the other German laws: I can't think of anything good that has come from them. Socialism has a way to sneak up on countries. That's all there is to it.
        pell 8y ago
        The problem is that you're simplifying in the first place. You seem to use "entitlement" only in a negative fashion akin to "freeloading" or "expecting something for free". I am using entitlement in a legal sense, in this case being entitled to/having a claim to/a right to buy at the highest price. The German word here would be "Anspruch". So, we can debate whether the highest bidder has a claim to something. I certainly understand the arguments for it. But there are scenarios where I do argue that this is something that should not be permitted or at least not for 100% of the available goods. As to your point about nothing good having come from such German laws, I disagree. Health care, legal counsel, medication, among other things are affordable in Germany while they can pose an existential risk in places without such limits.
anoncake 8y ago
> Who is entitled to that? People whose home is Berlin, for starters.

pell 8y ago

So people with money are entitled to it then?

ghostwriter 8y ago
There's no entitlement in trades between landlords and people with money - everything happens on mutually beneficial terms. Landlords own property by the right of their investment into it, which was also a mutually beneficial transaction between them and the developers who built it and got rewarded for their work.
- pell 8y ago
  Yes, these are the rules of a free market. But if a society or a governing body has additional priorities, rules can be added to such a framework. So, in the end it actually is a question about entitlement. Is a landlord entitled to rent to the highest bidder or not. I'm not saying I'm necessarily entirely against this concept, but I doubt it should be the default situation.
berlinerluft 8y ago
They are not entitled to it, they PAY for it. Amazing concept, I know.
- pell 8y ago
  I don't understand why you need to be obnoxiously sarcastic here. There are quite a few situations where governments set limits on how much a good can be priced at. It definitely is entitlement to be able to rent to the highest bidder.
  - berlinerluft 8y ago
    It's only entitlement if you come from a socialist perspective and think property is a frivolous concept.
    - pell 8y ago
      Germany - like many other countries - is not a libertarian state. Pricing caps are not new here, underpricing and overpricing are defined and limited in certain scenarios and for a number of goods like doctor or lawyer fees, medication, books, your ISP, etc. Obviously one can debate such decisions and their merit but if you simply reduce this to having a "frivolous concept of property" it's difficult to have a conversation with you because it seems like you're choosing to be destructive instead of using arguments.
      - berlinerluft 8y ago
        To simplify: to be entitled to something and to pay for it are some very different things. I'd argue that somebody who claims wealthy people paying for stuff is the same as entitlement is the person who is actually destructive. As for the other German laws: I can't think of anything good that has come from them. Socialism has a way to sneak up on countries. That's all there is to it.
        pell 8y ago
        The problem is that you're simplifying in the first place. You seem to use "entitlement" only in a negative fashion akin to "freeloading" or "expecting something for free". I am using entitlement in a legal sense, in this case being entitled to/having a claim to/a right to buy at the highest price. The German word here would be "Anspruch". So, we can debate whether the highest bidder has a claim to something. I certainly understand the arguments for it. But there are scenarios where I do argue that this is something that should not be permitted or at least not for 100% of the available goods. As to your point about nothing good having come from such German laws, I disagree. Health care, legal counsel, medication, among other things are affordable in Germany while they can pose an existential risk in places without such limits.

anoncake 8y ago

> Who is entitled to that? People whose home is Berlin, for starters.