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The neural network of nematode worms has been modelled in software, and a robotic avatar has been built for this "mind". It behaves very much like a real nemato

The neural network of nematode worms has been modelled in software, and a robotic avatar has been built for this "mind". It behaves very much like a real nematode worm. Real nematode worms appear to be conscious to an extent, in so far as they forage for food and mates, and retreat from danger or threats. I don't think we would argue that nematodes have the same level of consciousness as we do. If the mechanical model also does this, it it conscious too? We also know that different animals display different levels of consciousness, in many ways reflected by the amount of brain mass they posess; animals with far simpler brains appear, by and large, to be less conscious than animals with larger, more complex brains. We also know that damage to brains alters the properties of consciousness, as do interference with brain chemistry or electrical activity. It seems more likely that consciousness is an emergent property of the interactions between the physical structure of the brain/nervous system and electrical/chemical messaging. I think that assuming matter has a special, magical property of "consciousness" is just re-hashing the unfalsifiable concept of a "soul".

visarga 8y ago
I agree. I'd like to add that consciousness is an emergent property of the interactions between the agent and the environment. The environment is what feeds the agent with perceptions and reward signals, enabling learning to happen.
acqq 8y ago
> just re-hashing the unfalsifiable concept of a "soul" Yes. It comes from religiously inclined or deeply religious philosophers and “philosophers”. Once they fix they “belief” they search for any possible way to fit the reality, which otherwise wouldn’t support their belief, with their already pre-decided goal. Even worse, the last time I’ve checked, nautil.us was financed by the people with such goals: https://www.templeton.org https://www.templeton.org "The Foundation takes its vision from its founding benefactor, the late Sir John Templeton, who sought to stimulate what he described as “spiritual progress.”" And, as a more obvious parallel, if you ever wondered who produces "Ancient Aliens" on History Channel, it's also non-accidentally the guy who wants more "spirituality", in his words: "It’s really a show about looking for God. Science would have you believe we are the result of nothing more than a chance assemblage of matter" whereas "Ancient Aliens" "offers seekers an origin story." https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/21/style/ancient-aliens.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/21/style/ancient-aliens.html Yes, both behind the "conscious matter" and behind https://knowyourmeme.com/photos/158327-ancient-aliens https://knowyourmeme.com/photos/158327-ancient-aliens is a "spirituality" drive.
dhruval 8y ago
With infinite time and infinite space, you could do all the computations required for the nematode worm neural network with a pencil and paper rather than an electronic computer. Would you say that this pencil and paper is now conscious? Does the speed of computation cause emergence? How? Does building a computer out of organic particles cause consciousness? How? "Emergence" is mostly lazy thinking and lack of understanding the hard problem of consciousness. Roger Penrose has some plausible ideas on this, not sure if they are correct, however to me it seems that they must happen at a sub-neural network level.
- acqq 8y ago
  > you could do all the computations required for the nematode worm neural network with a pencil and paper rather than an electronic computer. Yes. > Would you say that this pencil and paper is now conscious? No. But your experiment involves "you with a pencil and a paper" where "you" is conscious. > Does building a computer out of organic particles cause consciousness? It's not necessary to use organic particles. We will probably soon build the electronic computer which will, from the perspective of the humans communicating with him, indeed behave "as a conscious person": soon we won't need you to write the answer you wrote, the computer will be able to make even better one. https://www.amazon.com/Makoroni-REPLACE-SCRIPT-License-Holder/dp/B07JVWN5C7 https://www.amazon.com/Makoroni-REPLACE-SCRIPT-License-Holde... > "Emergence" is mostly lazy thinking Calling "emergence" lazy thinking is lazy thinking. > and lack of understanding ... and lack of understanding of what emergence even means. Emerging properties are everywhere and they don't have to have anything with humans or their behavior to be recognized: http://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2013/10/18/is-time-real/ http://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2013/10/18/is-time-... "Temperature and pressure didn’t stop being real once we understood them as emergent properties of an underlying atomic description." Yes, temperature is an emergent property.
  - root_axis 8y ago
    > We will probably soon build the electronic computer which will, from the perspective of the humans communicating with him, indeed behave "as a conscious person": soon we won't need you to write the answer you wrote, the computer will be able to make even better one. This is wrong. We are absolutely nowhere near anything even remotely resembling this.
kamaal 8y ago
>>If the mechanical model also does this, it it conscious too? That's a big 'If'. You really have to arrive at something working to even ponder upon that question. Right now you are at: if (false) { is_conscious(); }
barumrho 8y ago
If the mechanical model also does this, it it conscious too? So, how would you answer your question?

visarga 8y ago

I agree. I'd like to add that consciousness is an emergent property of the interactions between the agent and the environment. The environment is what feeds the agent with perceptions and reward signals, enabling learning to happen.

acqq 8y ago

> just re-hashing the unfalsifiable concept of a "soul" Yes. It comes from religiously inclined or deeply religious philosophers and “philosophers”. Once they fix they “belief” they search for any possible way to fit the reality, which otherwise wouldn’t support their belief, with their already pre-decided goal. Even worse, the last time I’ve checked, nautil.us was financed by the people with such goals: https://www.templeton.org https://www.templeton.org "The Foundation takes its vision from its founding benefactor, the late Sir John Templeton, who sought to stimulate what he described as “spiritual progress.”" And, as a more obvious parallel, if you ever wondered who produces "Ancient Aliens" on History Channel, it's also non-accidentally the guy who wants more "spirituality", in his words: "It’s really a show about looking for God. Science would have you believe we are the result of nothing more than a chance assemblage of matter" whereas "Ancient Aliens" "offers seekers an origin story." https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/21/style/ancient-aliens.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/21/style/ancient-aliens.html Yes, both behind the "conscious matter" and behind https://knowyourmeme.com/photos/158327-ancient-aliens https://knowyourmeme.com/photos/158327-ancient-aliens is a "spirituality" drive.

dhruval 8y ago

With infinite time and infinite space, you could do all the computations required for the nematode worm neural network with a pencil and paper rather than an electronic computer. Would you say that this pencil and paper is now conscious? Does the speed of computation cause emergence? How? Does building a computer out of organic particles cause consciousness? How? "Emergence" is mostly lazy thinking and lack of understanding the hard problem of consciousness. Roger Penrose has some plausible ideas on this, not sure if they are correct, however to me it seems that they must happen at a sub-neural network level.

acqq 8y ago
> you could do all the computations required for the nematode worm neural network with a pencil and paper rather than an electronic computer. Yes. > Would you say that this pencil and paper is now conscious? No. But your experiment involves "you with a pencil and a paper" where "you" is conscious. > Does building a computer out of organic particles cause consciousness? It's not necessary to use organic particles. We will probably soon build the electronic computer which will, from the perspective of the humans communicating with him, indeed behave "as a conscious person": soon we won't need you to write the answer you wrote, the computer will be able to make even better one. https://www.amazon.com/Makoroni-REPLACE-SCRIPT-License-Holder/dp/B07JVWN5C7 https://www.amazon.com/Makoroni-REPLACE-SCRIPT-License-Holde... > "Emergence" is mostly lazy thinking Calling "emergence" lazy thinking is lazy thinking. > and lack of understanding ... and lack of understanding of what emergence even means. Emerging properties are everywhere and they don't have to have anything with humans or their behavior to be recognized: http://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2013/10/18/is-time-real/ http://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2013/10/18/is-time-... "Temperature and pressure didn’t stop being real once we understood them as emergent properties of an underlying atomic description." Yes, temperature is an emergent property.
- root_axis 8y ago
  > We will probably soon build the electronic computer which will, from the perspective of the humans communicating with him, indeed behave "as a conscious person": soon we won't need you to write the answer you wrote, the computer will be able to make even better one. This is wrong. We are absolutely nowhere near anything even remotely resembling this.

kamaal 8y ago

>>If the mechanical model also does this, it it conscious too? That's a big 'If'. You really have to arrive at something working to even ponder upon that question. Right now you are at: if (false) { is_conscious(); }

barumrho 8y ago

If the mechanical model also does this, it it conscious too? So, how would you answer your question?