7 ms·

Yes, housing is a right not a speculation opportunity. Also there should be opportunities for people to get their own houses, like cheap credits with a monthly

Yes, housing is a right not a speculation opportunity. Also there should be opportunities for people to get their own houses, like cheap credits with a monthly payment close to the rent.

alasdair_ 8y ago
>Yes, housing is a right not a speculation opportunity. Let's say I agree with this idea and let's also ignore the fact that by stating it's a right, we are implicitly stating that someone else needs to pay for it with their own money if you cannot. If housing is a right, does that necessarily mean that housing in a specific area is a right? I mean, I'd love a beachfront property in Maui but we can't all have that. If we build a few million houses in the middle of Kansas and tell people "there is your free house, as is your right", is that enough? Or do people have a right to a free house somewhere just because someone in their family happened to be lucky enough to live in the same general area at some point in the past? People in the US are generally allowed to move where they want. If a place becomes too expensive for them to live there, it's possible for them to move elsewhere if they must. I can definitely see that offering help with relocation could be good for society, and I can also see that having a mix of different people in an area is also good for society, but ultimately I don't agree that just because someone happened to pay rent at some point in the past, they and their descendants should be granted a perpetual right to stay in that proximate location forever.
- uasm 8y ago
  > "I mean, I'd love a beachfront property in Maui but we can't all have that" The person you're replying to is basically saying: "having a place you can stay in, to keep you alive and going rather than homeless and broken, a safety net in essence - should be a right". Your response: "but we can't hand over free beachfront properties in Maui for everyone". You're diverting the discussion ("but look at what communism did to Venezuela"). This isn't about free beachfront properties or luxury homes in Maui. This is about a single bedroom apartment with the most basic of utilities for people that wouldn't otherwise have the money or means to afford anything better: students, older folks, sick people, people that face hardships.
  - erik_seaberg 8y ago
    This isn't just about having shelter, this is about having it in Berlin specifically. Who is entitled to that? The answer can't be "everyone".
    - pell 8y ago
      So people with money are entitled to it then?
      - ghostwriter 8y ago
        There's no entitlement in trades between landlords and people with money - everything happens on mutually beneficial terms. Landlords own property by the right of their investment into it, which was also a mutually beneficial transaction between them and the developers who built it and got rewarded for their work.
        pell 8y ago
        Yes, these are the rules of a free market. But if a society or a governing body has additional priorities, rules can be added to such a framework. So, in the end it actually is a question about entitlement. Is a landlord entitled to rent to the highest bidder or not. I'm not saying I'm necessarily entirely against this concept, but I doubt it should be the default situation.
      - berlinerluft 8y ago
        They are not entitled to it, they PAY for it. Amazing concept, I know.
        pell 8y ago
        I don't understand why you need to be obnoxiously sarcastic here. There are quite a few situations where governments set limits on how much a good can be priced at. It definitely is entitlement to be able to rent to the highest bidder.
- TelmoMenezes 8y ago
  > Let's say I agree with this idea and let's also ignore the fact that by stating it's a right, we are implicitly stating that someone else needs to pay for it with their own money if you cannot. Yup, we do that sort of thing all the time in Europe. I know zero people that went bankrupt because of an unexpected serious illness and I know zero people that dislike the idea that we should all pool our resources so that universal health care is possible. This also applies to education, unemployment and other things. And yes, housing. In fact, most of the western world is more similar to Europe than to the US in this regard. Surprisingly, people from the US speak as if social-democracy is impossible somehow... It is not perfect for sure, but many aspects of modern US sound like a a dystopia to me. > If housing is a right, does that necessarily mean that housing in a specific area is a right? Agreed, but it should be possible to have renting contracts that do not make you move out of the place you have lived for half a century because some rich kids arrive with macbook pros and a taste for overpriced bad coffee. In fact, this is the case in Berlin, which of course means that some landlords start playing dirty tricks. I am for freedom. I think that people should, as much as possible, live as they wish. If you and your friends want to build Galt's Gulch, more power to you. If Berliners want to stay away from those games, more power to us.
  - berlinerluft 8y ago
    I am a renter in Berlin, so it is in my temporary interest if rents are limited (not talking about side effects, just in terms of short term thinking). But honestly, if you want to live in the same place for 30 years, maybe you should consider buying it? If somebody offers my landlord double the price I am paying, why exactly should he be liable to keep me as a renter?
tomp 8y ago
> Also there should be opportunities for people to get their own houses, like cheap credits with a monthly payment close to the rent Then everybody would want to buy, and prices would skyrocket, until mortgage is much higher than rent - and you're back to square 1.

Yes, housing is a right not a speculation opportunity. Also there should be opportunities for people to get their own houses, like cheap credits with a monthly payment close to the rent.

alasdair_ 8y ago

>Yes, housing is a right not a speculation opportunity. Let's say I agree with this idea and let's also ignore the fact that by stating it's a right, we are implicitly stating that someone else needs to pay for it with their own money if you cannot. If housing is a right, does that necessarily mean that housing in a specific area is a right? I mean, I'd love a beachfront property in Maui but we can't all have that. If we build a few million houses in the middle of Kansas and tell people "there is your free house, as is your right", is that enough? Or do people have a right to a free house somewhere just because someone in their family happened to be lucky enough to live in the same general area at some point in the past? People in the US are generally allowed to move where they want. If a place becomes too expensive for them to live there, it's possible for them to move elsewhere if they must. I can definitely see that offering help with relocation could be good for society, and I can also see that having a mix of different people in an area is also good for society, but ultimately I don't agree that just because someone happened to pay rent at some point in the past, they and their descendants should be granted a perpetual right to stay in that proximate location forever.

uasm 8y ago
> "I mean, I'd love a beachfront property in Maui but we can't all have that" The person you're replying to is basically saying: "having a place you can stay in, to keep you alive and going rather than homeless and broken, a safety net in essence - should be a right". Your response: "but we can't hand over free beachfront properties in Maui for everyone". You're diverting the discussion ("but look at what communism did to Venezuela"). This isn't about free beachfront properties or luxury homes in Maui. This is about a single bedroom apartment with the most basic of utilities for people that wouldn't otherwise have the money or means to afford anything better: students, older folks, sick people, people that face hardships.
- erik_seaberg 8y ago
  This isn't just about having shelter, this is about having it in Berlin specifically. Who is entitled to that? The answer can't be "everyone".
  - pell 8y ago
    So people with money are entitled to it then?
    - ghostwriter 8y ago
      There's no entitlement in trades between landlords and people with money - everything happens on mutually beneficial terms. Landlords own property by the right of their investment into it, which was also a mutually beneficial transaction between them and the developers who built it and got rewarded for their work.
      - pell 8y ago
        Yes, these are the rules of a free market. But if a society or a governing body has additional priorities, rules can be added to such a framework. So, in the end it actually is a question about entitlement. Is a landlord entitled to rent to the highest bidder or not. I'm not saying I'm necessarily entirely against this concept, but I doubt it should be the default situation.
    - berlinerluft 8y ago
      They are not entitled to it, they PAY for it. Amazing concept, I know.
      - pell 8y ago
        I don't understand why you need to be obnoxiously sarcastic here. There are quite a few situations where governments set limits on how much a good can be priced at. It definitely is entitlement to be able to rent to the highest bidder.
TelmoMenezes 8y ago
> Let's say I agree with this idea and let's also ignore the fact that by stating it's a right, we are implicitly stating that someone else needs to pay for it with their own money if you cannot. Yup, we do that sort of thing all the time in Europe. I know zero people that went bankrupt because of an unexpected serious illness and I know zero people that dislike the idea that we should all pool our resources so that universal health care is possible. This also applies to education, unemployment and other things. And yes, housing. In fact, most of the western world is more similar to Europe than to the US in this regard. Surprisingly, people from the US speak as if social-democracy is impossible somehow... It is not perfect for sure, but many aspects of modern US sound like a a dystopia to me. > If housing is a right, does that necessarily mean that housing in a specific area is a right? Agreed, but it should be possible to have renting contracts that do not make you move out of the place you have lived for half a century because some rich kids arrive with macbook pros and a taste for overpriced bad coffee. In fact, this is the case in Berlin, which of course means that some landlords start playing dirty tricks. I am for freedom. I think that people should, as much as possible, live as they wish. If you and your friends want to build Galt's Gulch, more power to you. If Berliners want to stay away from those games, more power to us.
- berlinerluft 8y ago
  I am a renter in Berlin, so it is in my temporary interest if rents are limited (not talking about side effects, just in terms of short term thinking). But honestly, if you want to live in the same place for 30 years, maybe you should consider buying it? If somebody offers my landlord double the price I am paying, why exactly should he be liable to keep me as a renter?

tomp 8y ago

> Also there should be opportunities for people to get their own houses, like cheap credits with a monthly payment close to the rent Then everybody would want to buy, and prices would skyrocket, until mortgage is much higher than rent - and you're back to square 1.