4 ms·

I've never understood the idea of using a 60% tenkeyless when your job requires you to type a lot. Even if you go full-size it dosen't take that much more space

I've never understood the idea of using a 60% tenkeyless when your job requires you to type a lot. Even if you go full-size it dosen't take that much more space and you save you fingers the extra work for number and function keys.

dwoot 8y ago
It's portable (although it's not a feature I care that much about), but programmatic layers are a huge plus for me. I use Vim and now I don't need to move a hand off my home row to use arrows and I love this. So, it's not really about space. It's also aesthetically more pleasing which is subjective. I'm a bit of a minimalist. I refuse to use multiple monitors such that I don't get used to having the additional screen-space, because I do have a tendency to work at coffeeshops and my workflow remains the same in the office and outside of it.
sjburt 8y ago
I like having my mouse closer to my typing position. I've gotten fast enough at the top number keys that I don't mind too much.
the_pwner224 8y ago
> Even if you go full-size it dosen't take that much more space and you save you fingers the extra work for number and function keys. If I go back to full size, it takes enough space that my shoulder hurts from the off-center kb/mouse, and it makes my fingers work harder and slower to reach the numpad and function keys. I used to have a full size mechanical, switched to a 60%, and more recently an asymmetrical split 5x6+5x7 keyboard. The two small ones run a fully programmable FOSS firmware (QMK), so I can get keybindings that help me work faster. The F-keys are used rarely enough that it's fine having them replace the top number row on the 2nd layer. I have a button to toggle to the 2nd layer, and two buttons that activate the second layer when held (one where the Fn key is on laptops, another where Enter is). On the 2nd layer, HJKL are arrow keys, WASD + QE + RF are also arrow keys + home/end + pgup/pgdn. The 2nd layer also has volume+media keys, print screen, and some other stuff on it. So I can navigate around the computer much faster since my hands never ever leave the home row. The split keyboard is ortholinear (keys arranged in a grid, not staggered). I've had Caps Lock replaced with Escape for a long time and it's way superior to having escape above the tilde. There's no spacebar, all keys use 1 unit on the grid. My left thumb has space and backspace right below it; the right thumb has space and enter below it. So esc+bksp+enter no longer strain the pinkies, and they are faster to use. Aside from that it's pretty much a normal keyboard; however the split does make it a fair bit more ergonomic - both halves can be moved around and tilted. 40% keyboards without the number row on top, on the other hand... I don't know how anyone can use those for real work. Also, I haven't needed to do it, but you can place on your second layer (or dedicate a key just for it) a key that will take you to the third layer. Put a numpad + mouse keys + F-keys on the 3rd layer and it's perfect for data entry. Or numpad + WASD + arrow keys, so you can play the occasional game which requires both WASD and arrows.
system2 8y ago
This setup is not for the real world, it is for fame and stream. I can't even imagine not using my 2nd monitor. I have 4 monitors by the way. With all the distraction and talking, with smiley and responses, I don't think anyone can really deliver anything properly on time. Some people play games, some use different tools for streaming. This is one of those.
- guitarbill 8y ago
  Ah, the old "No true Scotsman" fallacy. Some people love multiple monitors, like many of my colleagues whom I respect despite using multiple monitors /s. But I have yet to understand how multiple monitors are inherently more efficient than e.g. multiple desktops, or switching between windows, especially when I'm wearing glasses. (This is not an invite to try and "convince" me, I've tried.) Similarly, some people simply prefer not having to move their hands as much with the smaller keyboards, including - what a surprise! - people with smaller hands. What I really don't get is why you'd need to put down other people's choices to validate your own.
  - system2 8y ago
    Because this is a comment section and I want to share my thoughts and experience as well as my criticism?! Didn't you just do the same to my comment?
    - guitarbill 8y ago
      While I have a preference, as do most people, I didn't say it was better than alternative solutions (my argument is pretty much that their equivalent), and didn't imply that one choice somehow made the user more professional or serious ("not for the real world, it is for fame and stream").
      - system2 8y ago
        Maybe, I've been in the tech industry over 15 years professionally (excluding geeky childhood of course), and the second monitor for coding or any type of tech business was a blessing once it became affordable for most people. I just cannot imagine not having a 3rd right now. Keepass (or another offline pass manager), Skype, multiple shells open, ftp manager, notepad (or whatever you call it for coding), browser, some Spotify (okay I get this one is not a must), and sometimes calculator. I can't even imagine not having a numpad like she doesn't have. In our work environments, everyone has a 2nd, 3rd, or 4th. I've seen even 6th monitor. Her system is for streaming, and I don't think while streaming anyone can get anything done properly. Let alone the privacy of the company you are hired to do the job.
paulnechifor 8y ago
Depending on your setup, you might never/rarely need to use certain keys. The numpad is a waste of space, there's literally no need for it. Arrow keys are rarely needed if you use Vim and i3wm (plus vi mode in bash and vi shortcuts for Tmux). On my keyboard if I need the arrow keys I just press Fn+esdf (wasd offset by 1). All the other rarely used keys (F1-F12, PgUp/Dn, &c) are just a Fn key away. I find that combining keys is more convenient that having separate keys far away.
jrockway 8y ago
There is a certain maximum number of keys that your fingers can actually reach. At some point, chords end up being easier to type. I think 3 row keyboards are too few keys, but the number row is actually pretty hard to type, so eliminating it isn't necessarily insane. I have a number row on my keyboard but I also have "raise" and "lower" layers, one of which gives you a number pad on your right hand. I find the numpad easier to reach than 1 and 0 and try to use it all the time. I have symbols mapped to a layer, so the crucial ones are on home row, with the other ones on the letter keys below the number that normally types them, with some exceptions for keys I've moved elsewhere. I also have dedicated keys for := and != which is quite enjoyable. (You can see the complete map at https://github.com/jrockway/qmk_firmware/blob/master/keyboards/ergodox_ez/keymaps/jrockway/keymap.c https://github.com/jrockway/qmk_firmware/blob/master/keyboar...) Basically, if you're programming you are probably typing a lot of symbols. On a traditional qwerty layout, all those symbols are shifted AND on hard-to-reach keys. Moving them anywhere else is an improvement. Having more keys is good for infrequent things like arrow keys, page up/page down, insert/delete... basically OS functions that you use during normal usage of your computer, but that you've programmed any application you actually care about to not use. (In Emacs/Vim you aren't using arrow keys to move around your text, for example. Or at least I don't, preferring C-n/C-p/C-v/M-v/C-f/C-b to the OS keys.)

dwoot 8y ago

It's portable (although it's not a feature I care that much about), but programmatic layers are a huge plus for me. I use Vim and now I don't need to move a hand off my home row to use arrows and I love this. So, it's not really about space. It's also aesthetically more pleasing which is subjective. I'm a bit of a minimalist. I refuse to use multiple monitors such that I don't get used to having the additional screen-space, because I do have a tendency to work at coffeeshops and my workflow remains the same in the office and outside of it.

sjburt 8y ago

I like having my mouse closer to my typing position. I've gotten fast enough at the top number keys that I don't mind too much.

the_pwner224 8y ago

> Even if you go full-size it dosen't take that much more space and you save you fingers the extra work for number and function keys. If I go back to full size, it takes enough space that my shoulder hurts from the off-center kb/mouse, and it makes my fingers work harder and slower to reach the numpad and function keys. I used to have a full size mechanical, switched to a 60%, and more recently an asymmetrical split 5x6+5x7 keyboard. The two small ones run a fully programmable FOSS firmware (QMK), so I can get keybindings that help me work faster. The F-keys are used rarely enough that it's fine having them replace the top number row on the 2nd layer. I have a button to toggle to the 2nd layer, and two buttons that activate the second layer when held (one where the Fn key is on laptops, another where Enter is). On the 2nd layer, HJKL are arrow keys, WASD + QE + RF are also arrow keys + home/end + pgup/pgdn. The 2nd layer also has volume+media keys, print screen, and some other stuff on it. So I can navigate around the computer much faster since my hands never ever leave the home row. The split keyboard is ortholinear (keys arranged in a grid, not staggered). I've had Caps Lock replaced with Escape for a long time and it's way superior to having escape above the tilde. There's no spacebar, all keys use 1 unit on the grid. My left thumb has space and backspace right below it; the right thumb has space and enter below it. So esc+bksp+enter no longer strain the pinkies, and they are faster to use. Aside from that it's pretty much a normal keyboard; however the split does make it a fair bit more ergonomic - both halves can be moved around and tilted. 40% keyboards without the number row on top, on the other hand... I don't know how anyone can use those for real work. Also, I haven't needed to do it, but you can place on your second layer (or dedicate a key just for it) a key that will take you to the third layer. Put a numpad + mouse keys + F-keys on the 3rd layer and it's perfect for data entry. Or numpad + WASD + arrow keys, so you can play the occasional game which requires both WASD and arrows.

system2 8y ago

This setup is not for the real world, it is for fame and stream. I can't even imagine not using my 2nd monitor. I have 4 monitors by the way. With all the distraction and talking, with smiley and responses, I don't think anyone can really deliver anything properly on time. Some people play games, some use different tools for streaming. This is one of those.

guitarbill 8y ago
Ah, the old "No true Scotsman" fallacy. Some people love multiple monitors, like many of my colleagues whom I respect despite using multiple monitors /s. But I have yet to understand how multiple monitors are inherently more efficient than e.g. multiple desktops, or switching between windows, especially when I'm wearing glasses. (This is not an invite to try and "convince" me, I've tried.) Similarly, some people simply prefer not having to move their hands as much with the smaller keyboards, including - what a surprise! - people with smaller hands. What I really don't get is why you'd need to put down other people's choices to validate your own.
- system2 8y ago
  Because this is a comment section and I want to share my thoughts and experience as well as my criticism?! Didn't you just do the same to my comment?
  - guitarbill 8y ago
    While I have a preference, as do most people, I didn't say it was better than alternative solutions (my argument is pretty much that their equivalent), and didn't imply that one choice somehow made the user more professional or serious ("not for the real world, it is for fame and stream").
    - system2 8y ago
      Maybe, I've been in the tech industry over 15 years professionally (excluding geeky childhood of course), and the second monitor for coding or any type of tech business was a blessing once it became affordable for most people. I just cannot imagine not having a 3rd right now. Keepass (or another offline pass manager), Skype, multiple shells open, ftp manager, notepad (or whatever you call it for coding), browser, some Spotify (okay I get this one is not a must), and sometimes calculator. I can't even imagine not having a numpad like she doesn't have. In our work environments, everyone has a 2nd, 3rd, or 4th. I've seen even 6th monitor. Her system is for streaming, and I don't think while streaming anyone can get anything done properly. Let alone the privacy of the company you are hired to do the job.

paulnechifor 8y ago

Depending on your setup, you might never/rarely need to use certain keys. The numpad is a waste of space, there's literally no need for it. Arrow keys are rarely needed if you use Vim and i3wm (plus vi mode in bash and vi shortcuts for Tmux). On my keyboard if I need the arrow keys I just press Fn+esdf (wasd offset by 1). All the other rarely used keys (F1-F12, PgUp/Dn, &c) are just a Fn key away. I find that combining keys is more convenient that having separate keys far away.

jrockway 8y ago

There is a certain maximum number of keys that your fingers can actually reach. At some point, chords end up being easier to type. I think 3 row keyboards are too few keys, but the number row is actually pretty hard to type, so eliminating it isn't necessarily insane. I have a number row on my keyboard but I also have "raise" and "lower" layers, one of which gives you a number pad on your right hand. I find the numpad easier to reach than 1 and 0 and try to use it all the time. I have symbols mapped to a layer, so the crucial ones are on home row, with the other ones on the letter keys below the number that normally types them, with some exceptions for keys I've moved elsewhere. I also have dedicated keys for := and != which is quite enjoyable. (You can see the complete map at https://github.com/jrockway/qmk_firmware/blob/master/keyboards/ergodox_ez/keymaps/jrockway/keymap.c https://github.com/jrockway/qmk_firmware/blob/master/keyboar...) Basically, if you're programming you are probably typing a lot of symbols. On a traditional qwerty layout, all those symbols are shifted AND on hard-to-reach keys. Moving them anywhere else is an improvement. Having more keys is good for infrequent things like arrow keys, page up/page down, insert/delete... basically OS functions that you use during normal usage of your computer, but that you've programmed any application you actually care about to not use. (In Emacs/Vim you aren't using arrow keys to move around your text, for example. Or at least I don't, preferring C-n/C-p/C-v/M-v/C-f/C-b to the OS keys.)