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Just yesterday, I was watching an episode of "This Week in Startups" [0]. At about 12:20, the conversation turns to jobs, UBI, etc. and his guest, Rabios, start

Just yesterday, I was watching an episode of "This Week in Startups" [0]. At about 12:20, the conversation turns to jobs, UBI, etc. and his guest, Rabios, starts going on about how depressed people would be without jobs, with statements like this: >"The by-product of your toil is what makes you human in many ways, and if you pay people not to work, you're actually destroying their self-worth." My first thought was "well, that's convenient, coming from a guy who makes his living from the work of others". But, of course, it's also likely that he and the "investor-class"--as well as a broad segment of people, including much of startup culture--really are so disconnected from reality, that they can't fathom that not everyone is in a position to "create", "find fulfillment", or otherwise change the world through their labor. But, do they not notice when they see people cleaning toilets, etc? Or is it just those people's moral failing? Calacanis then goes on to make the case that young men become despondent and start riots, turn to terrorism, etc because they are unemployed. This, as if their despondency in unemployment has everything to do with not having access to work as the sole means of fulfillment; and nothing to do with the fact that we've structured society in such a way that we cannot subsist at any level of decency, except through our labor. I think these people have convinced themselves of the inherent truth of workism, because it serves them and because it is their experience. But, with this increasing disconnect and the mounting pressures faced by workers, the situation will ultimately be untenable. [0] https://youtu.be/fOS9K4UU50A https://youtu.be/fOS9K4UU50A

jblow 8y ago
Was there ever a time when a human being could subsist at any level of decency except through labor? Why then would you expect humans to be adapted to such a situation?
- daniel-cussen 8y ago
  Hunting. Gathering. You have to do things, but it's not labor. Tribes cared for their sick and old, and they would watch the children. For what you said to be true, even chewing food would have to be considered labor.
  - hnuser123457 8y ago
    Why do you not consider hunting and gathering to be labor? Is tracking dangerous animals through the forest and butchering them not work? Foraging and picking fruits, vegetables, and nuts is likewise not work? A ridiculous assertion.
  - jblow 8y ago
    It’s not labor? What is your definition of labor?
- unclebucknasty 8y ago
  >Was there ever a time when a human being could subsist at any level of decency except through labor? There was once a time when humans were hunter-gatherers. Are you suggesting that our approach to societal organization should be the same now as then? >Why then would you expect humans to be adapted to such a situation? How have some humans "adapted to" accumulating resources many orders of magnitude beyond what they require for subsistence?
- ji48520 8y ago
  There are many people currently living at a good level of decency (even way over the average) from disability benefits, inheritances, accumulated rent... Literally getting paid for no labor at all and they're doing just fine. We, humans, come from terrible conditions where disease, famine, death by overwork/exposure to the elements were a day to day thing. I never hear of anybody dying after being too comfortable.
- Cyph0n 8y ago
  UBI opens up the option of pursuing labor you enjoy instead of just labor that you need.
jl2718 8y ago
You posit a strong opinion that things will get worse without UBI, but you’re not actually making any statement that UBI will prevent this or improve the situation.
- unclebucknasty 8y ago
  >You posit a strong opinion that things will get worse without UBI, but you’re not actually making any statement that UBI will prevent this or improve the situation. No, UBI is just an example of one remedy that's been offered (and was mentioned specifically on that podcast). My point was not to champion UBI specifically; only to highlight that the way many reason about these things is flawed in a manner that is intrinsically linked to the culture of workism.
- tirrellp 8y ago
  Jl2718, how do I get in contact with you directly?
ji48520 8y ago
These comments are what makes me really cynical about these CEO kind of personalities. They are totally unashamed on talking with absolute conviction about anything, it doesn't matter at all that they are absolutely ignorant about the subject. As a person that has lived in Spain for 30 years, Calacanis saying that unemployed people in Spain is turning to rioting and terrorism is just hilarious. ie. people involved in Barcelona attacks were not unemployed, but were students and had low level/low pay jobs[0]. Not only that, talking about Europe as a jobless nightmare, generalizing the unemployment rates of Greece, with a population of just 11 millions to the whole continental Europe is plainly idiotic. There are cities in USA with 17.4% of unemployment, like El Centro, CA [1] and nobody sane would mention them as an example. By the way, the countries inside Europe that actually made the experiments they are referring to are doing just fine on unemployment statistics. Better than states like Alaska or the District of Columbia by the way[2]. I agree in one subject though, and it's about the panic they show while talking about 20% unemployment. In the USA it would be absolutely catastrophic and would lead to anarchy, no doubt. But not because people would loose their purpose in life, but because people is really determined to survive, and when we are talking about paying gramma's life saver surgery or respect others private property the decision is clear for most people. In Europe, and particularly in Spain, the concept of paying for healthcare is absolutely foreign. P.D. Sorry about my English, it's not my first language. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Barcelona_attacks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Barcelona_attacks [1] https://www.bls.gov/web/metro/laummtrk.htm https://www.bls.gov/web/metro/laummtrk.htm [2] https://tradingeconomics.com/finland/unemployment-rate https://tradingeconomics.com/finland/unemployment-rate

jblow 8y ago

Was there ever a time when a human being could subsist at any level of decency except through labor? Why then would you expect humans to be adapted to such a situation?

daniel-cussen 8y ago
Hunting. Gathering. You have to do things, but it's not labor. Tribes cared for their sick and old, and they would watch the children. For what you said to be true, even chewing food would have to be considered labor.
- hnuser123457 8y ago
  Why do you not consider hunting and gathering to be labor? Is tracking dangerous animals through the forest and butchering them not work? Foraging and picking fruits, vegetables, and nuts is likewise not work? A ridiculous assertion.
- jblow 8y ago
  It’s not labor? What is your definition of labor?
unclebucknasty 8y ago
>Was there ever a time when a human being could subsist at any level of decency except through labor? There was once a time when humans were hunter-gatherers. Are you suggesting that our approach to societal organization should be the same now as then? >Why then would you expect humans to be adapted to such a situation? How have some humans "adapted to" accumulating resources many orders of magnitude beyond what they require for subsistence?
ji48520 8y ago
There are many people currently living at a good level of decency (even way over the average) from disability benefits, inheritances, accumulated rent... Literally getting paid for no labor at all and they're doing just fine. We, humans, come from terrible conditions where disease, famine, death by overwork/exposure to the elements were a day to day thing. I never hear of anybody dying after being too comfortable.
Cyph0n 8y ago
UBI opens up the option of pursuing labor you enjoy instead of just labor that you need.

jl2718 8y ago

You posit a strong opinion that things will get worse without UBI, but you’re not actually making any statement that UBI will prevent this or improve the situation.

unclebucknasty 8y ago
>You posit a strong opinion that things will get worse without UBI, but you’re not actually making any statement that UBI will prevent this or improve the situation. No, UBI is just an example of one remedy that's been offered (and was mentioned specifically on that podcast). My point was not to champion UBI specifically; only to highlight that the way many reason about these things is flawed in a manner that is intrinsically linked to the culture of workism.
tirrellp 8y ago
Jl2718, how do I get in contact with you directly?

ji48520 8y ago

These comments are what makes me really cynical about these CEO kind of personalities. They are totally unashamed on talking with absolute conviction about anything, it doesn't matter at all that they are absolutely ignorant about the subject. As a person that has lived in Spain for 30 years, Calacanis saying that unemployed people in Spain is turning to rioting and terrorism is just hilarious. ie. people involved in Barcelona attacks were not unemployed, but were students and had low level/low pay jobs[0]. Not only that, talking about Europe as a jobless nightmare, generalizing the unemployment rates of Greece, with a population of just 11 millions to the whole continental Europe is plainly idiotic. There are cities in USA with 17.4% of unemployment, like El Centro, CA [1] and nobody sane would mention them as an example. By the way, the countries inside Europe that actually made the experiments they are referring to are doing just fine on unemployment statistics. Better than states like Alaska or the District of Columbia by the way[2]. I agree in one subject though, and it's about the panic they show while talking about 20% unemployment. In the USA it would be absolutely catastrophic and would lead to anarchy, no doubt. But not because people would loose their purpose in life, but because people is really determined to survive, and when we are talking about paying gramma's life saver surgery or respect others private property the decision is clear for most people. In Europe, and particularly in Spain, the concept of paying for healthcare is absolutely foreign. P.D. Sorry about my English, it's not my first language. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Barcelona_attacks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Barcelona_attacks [1] https://www.bls.gov/web/metro/laummtrk.htm https://www.bls.gov/web/metro/laummtrk.htm [2] https://tradingeconomics.com/finland/unemployment-rate https://tradingeconomics.com/finland/unemployment-rate