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I think he's wrong about people not having loyalty to meat. There is a ton of literal hatred for veganism and vegetarians in this world. Think of the practicall

by tgb 8y ago

I think he's wrong about people not having loyalty to meat. There is a ton of literal hatred for veganism and vegetarians in this world. Think of the practically cult-like following bacon has. I recall a thread some years ago on Reddit's r/fitness with someone asking for vegan protein sources due to certain allergies or other health restrictions and it was spammed with dozens of comments along the lines of "bacon" and even one that suggested semen. People have their diet deeply embedded in their self-image. Cheaper and tastier won't change that many people's opinions. Meat will stay at least a luxury food even if the alternatives are literally superior in every tangible way - it'll be signalling at the very least. Cheaper might actually make it into a "poor person's food." But there'll also be aversion to "lab grown" instead of "natural" and things like that - see resistance to GMOs.

mattmanser 8y ago
I think you're very wrong and pg is spot on. I remember when Vegan/Vegetarians were sneered at in the UK 25 years ago, but they aren't now. In the space of 25 years it's gone from being rare to see veggie options, to it being the norm to have at least 25% non-meat options on the menu. Attitudes change, and once it's gone, most people will eventually find the idea of rearing animals to kill repellant. If you can deliver me meat taste and texture without the environmental consequences of meat rearing, I'd definitely switch. I'd even pay a premium, though in reality it should rapidly become cheaper than the labor/land intensive meat industry.
- tgb 8y ago
  I agree with "eventually" I just think it's further along than PG and you think.
- paulcole 8y ago
  I think you’re very wrong. Vegans/Vegetarians are still sneered at in the US. Any non major city/college town in the South/Midwest is still dominated by meat and the associated culture. Thanksgiving alone is a nearly insurmountable hurdle. “Tofurky” is still a gross joke to most people. You and PG are both vastly underestimating the emotional attachment people have to their current way of life.
  - gotocake 8y ago
    To me it just seems like the clearest indication of a bubble in Silicon Valley in particular, and the Bay Area in general. Even putting aside emotional attachment, people actually enjoy the taste of meat and don’t see a pressing reason to stop. Aside from some YouTube hype, I’ve never met anyone offline who thinks the various meat subsitutes are remotely like the real thing. Then again I remember when Soylent was “the big thing that everyone was going to get into” in tech circles. I tried to explain that it just didn’t appeal to 99% of people, and revolted many of them. Fortunately reality does seem to seep through eventually. When it comes down to it, “save the earth” arguments aimed at something other than energy generation, shipping, industry, and transportation are too easy to shoot down.
    - mattmanser 8y ago
      You're missing pg's point completely. The present options are rubbish, that's NOT what we're talking about. pg is not talking about Tofurky or tofu, he's talking about lab grown meat. Lab grown meat tastes, smells, cooks and is textured exactly like meat. If you can buy something that's much cheaper than meat, but has all the plus sides, why would you choose meat? Plus on top of that there's been a lot of media coverage the last 2 or 3 years that meat is causing a lot of problems environmentally. So there's an environmental and an economic reason to switch.
  - chrisco255 8y ago
    Food is one of the deepest and most defining parts of a culture. Not only that but I grew up in a rural area and have killed my own meat. I don't have any qualms about it. The issues people have with it are purely a side effect of chic urban programming.
    - sls 8y ago
      And yet we know vegetarianism goes back to at least the 7th century BCE. So perhaps your glib ascription to an urban trendiness is unfounded.
      - 8y ago
- mnm1 8y ago
  This might be the case where you live, but it's definitely not the case in many countries around the world. I like to travel and part of the reason I gave up vegetarianism is because I was tired of eating the same stuff over and over again while traveling because there were no other options (caprese sandwich in Europe). Not to mention the extreme difficulty of limiting carbs and sugars while maintaining any kind of taste in vegetarian diets. As for synthetic meat, which is what pg is talking about, I can't possibly see it making inroads if it costs more than meat, which it sounds like pg is implying. Most people can barely afford meat as it is.
- lukasm 8y ago
  Restaurants have to have at least one veg option on the menu. This is mostly due to migration from different countries, not Vegans. By offering a veg meal you can serve a halal/kosher/"hindu" dish.
benj111 8y ago
There's 'meat' that we eat, and 'meat' as in dead animal. We've got quite good in the west at separating the 2. I don't think steak and other cuts of meat are going anywhere that quickly. But mince, 'chicken' breast, nuggets, sausages, that kind of stuff, I can see switching fairly quickly if there was a decent, cost effective alternative.
lackbeard 8y ago
I'm pretty sure the "hatred" towards vegans and vegetarians isn't actually hatred, but defensiveness. I think most meat-eaters wouldn't care about veganism and vegetarianism at all if there weren't so many vegans and vegetarians trying to moralize to the rest of world how they ought to be eating.
- yazboo 8y ago
  As a vegetarian who makes a point of being low key about it, not bringing it up unless asked, etc, there is almost endless judgment and questioning put forth in my direction. Every time I go out for a work lunch and order the black bean burger, or meatless sides at a BBQ joint or whatever, people want to dust off their freshman philosophy class ethical arguments. People with non-normative beliefs stand out from the normative culture just by virtue of existing. If we must defend ourselves constantly it sounds louder. I understand that can be annoying to people like you.
  - chrisco255 8y ago
    We'll look at WeWork, they banned their employees from expensing non-pescatarian meals. I think you'd be hard pressed to find an example of an employer who banned their employees from expensing vegan meals.
    - yazboo 8y ago
      One company among the thousands upon thousands of non-vege-/pescatarian companies limiting their meal reimbursement policy does not support the argument that there exist "so many vegans and vegetarians trying to moralize to the rest of world." In fact, I believe it is evidence of the opposite: members of the normative culture are so protective of their own homogeneity, wittingly or not, that they consider a single example of heterodoxy to be intolerably deviant.
    - jtms 8y ago
      Wow, an employer dictating my diet is where I draw a HARD line of “get the ____ out of my life”. This seems discriminatory and unethical to say the least.
dkarl 8y ago
You're right, but meat will go up in price, and I think rich people aren't as stubborn when comes to sticking with class symbols that become unfashionable and stigmatized. I think high-quality meat will be like cigars, a former status symbol that a few eccentric people stick with for personal reasons but whose connection to opulence is stuck in the past. With fashion turning against it and most people sticking to mass-produced food for economic resaons, there will be a huge decline over the next generation or two. People in rural areas will be able to raise their own animals, but it will be forced underground as a moral outrage like cockfighting is today.
sametmax 8y ago
> There is a ton of literal hatred for veganism and vegetarians in this world. Think of the practically cult-like following bacon has. It's not that much hatred for veganism as rejection for something that is different in general. The first vegans came mainly from outcast communities, like hippies, or pet lovers. There is also the problem of feeling they are being judged: you'll often see somebody defensively saying "I could never be a vegan because of so and so" while nobody ever asked. At last, we still live in a society with a macho touch, and meat is associated with being manly. So really it's not about veganism, but about deeper issues from our society. The fact there are more veggies and vegan today is a good news though: it means the society is becomming more tolerant, more open minded, and have the technology to support a less destructive lifestyle. Like with every deep change in society, the best we can do is to help everybody get along and support each others. Cooking wars are just a symptom, and not the proper battle field.
DoreenMichele 8y ago
There is a ton of literal hatred for veganism and vegetarians in this world. I think there is a ton of literal hatred for vegans and vegetarians, who tend to position themselves as morally superior to meat eaters and brag about how they are kinder and gentler than meat eaters, often while being openly cruel people. They are frequently seemingly oblivious to the glaring contradictions between their self image and their actual behavior. I've known at least one person who used the label vegan while not actually being vegan. She was vegetarian and sometimes ate vegan, but calling herself vegan for the moral superiority points. She was a high-handed judgy person who was openly, consistently and persistently ugly to me when I was homeless and extremely ill. (When I have remarked on that to vegetarians trying to lecture people about stuff, they are almost never sympathetic to how awful that was for me. Their default reaction boils down to a callous and narcissistic "Get over your crap, honey. #NotAllVegans. Your one time totally unimportant negative experience shouldn't be used to impugn my stellar character!") Maybe if more people eat vegetarian burgers because, meh, climate change and clean eating for my own health and similar reasons without it being treated like some cult you need to join to save your soul, open hatred of meatless meals will go way down.
- AnimalMuppet 8y ago
  My daughter recently said something about "narcissistic ideology" - something that is adhered to, not because it's true, but because it gives a sense of moral superiority to the adherent. I think that's an interesting label for the type of person you had the misfortune to run into.
  - DoreenMichele 8y ago
    It's unfortunate because it gives a bad name to a generally positive life choice and because there's really no means to determine if the toxic vegetarians are simply a vocal minority.
- mratzloff 8y ago
  You hear the same kind of thing about atheists. Consider that the few outspoken individuals you meet who are like this are rare and most people in that group are just quietly trying to live their lives. They're not seeking an argument or your approval, and you aren't even aware of most of the people you know who fit into that group. So your known encounters with that group are rare, and you carry your own personal bias, so any negative experience is magnified.
KozmoNau7 8y ago
I definitely see a lot of mockery of vegans among my circle of friends/acquaintances. Not outright hatred, but definitely mockery and it's not directed solely at vegans. It's just that vegans tend to be rather vocal about their choices, and they tend to be very social media adept and like to arrange eye-catching demonstrations in public, at least around here. I think a lot of the mockery comes from insecurity, I know some guys who are very adamant about their Manly Personality, which has meat, booze, beer and cigars as mandatory elements. There is a segment of vegans who are very enthusiastic about calling non-vegans "murderers" and shaming them for "eating corpses" and the like. It's a small fringe group, but they are very vocal, and are deliberately very attention-grabbing. Since I sometimes move in the same or adjacent social circles, I do know quite a few people who are vegan, and they're pretty relaxed about it, outside of occasional activities in protests and the like. I like talking about recipes with them, stuff like finding the best egg substitute for Belgian waffles, always a great way to get a vegan very enthusiastically chatty about a subject they really care about :-) I'm very open-minded about food, so while I do like dishes with meat, I'm also very enthusiastic about good veggie dishes, and I don't want to judge people for their dietary choices.
mratzloff 8y ago
I'm vegetarian. I never bring it up, but when other people find out about it they will not shut the fuck up about it. They will tell me why they aren't vegetarian, they will ask me why I'm one, and they will tell me about all the vegetarians or vegans in their lives who they claim won't stop talking about it. I suspect that's more than a little projection. Meat is just a part of some people's identity, just like sexuality, religion, and politics. And they react along the typical spectrum of reactions for those things.
- throwaway392311 8y ago
  Same here. I have a rule to never tell people about my diet unless they ask and never attempt at proselytizing. At least once a month somebody will tell me how preachy vegetarians are and attempt at interrogating me.

by tgb 8y ago

mattmanser 8y ago

I think you're very wrong and pg is spot on. I remember when Vegan/Vegetarians were sneered at in the UK 25 years ago, but they aren't now. In the space of 25 years it's gone from being rare to see veggie options, to it being the norm to have at least 25% non-meat options on the menu. Attitudes change, and once it's gone, most people will eventually find the idea of rearing animals to kill repellant. If you can deliver me meat taste and texture without the environmental consequences of meat rearing, I'd definitely switch. I'd even pay a premium, though in reality it should rapidly become cheaper than the labor/land intensive meat industry.

tgb 8y ago
I agree with "eventually" I just think it's further along than PG and you think.
paulcole 8y ago
I think you’re very wrong. Vegans/Vegetarians are still sneered at in the US. Any non major city/college town in the South/Midwest is still dominated by meat and the associated culture. Thanksgiving alone is a nearly insurmountable hurdle. “Tofurky” is still a gross joke to most people. You and PG are both vastly underestimating the emotional attachment people have to their current way of life.
- gotocake 8y ago
  To me it just seems like the clearest indication of a bubble in Silicon Valley in particular, and the Bay Area in general. Even putting aside emotional attachment, people actually enjoy the taste of meat and don’t see a pressing reason to stop. Aside from some YouTube hype, I’ve never met anyone offline who thinks the various meat subsitutes are remotely like the real thing. Then again I remember when Soylent was “the big thing that everyone was going to get into” in tech circles. I tried to explain that it just didn’t appeal to 99% of people, and revolted many of them. Fortunately reality does seem to seep through eventually. When it comes down to it, “save the earth” arguments aimed at something other than energy generation, shipping, industry, and transportation are too easy to shoot down.
  - mattmanser 8y ago
    You're missing pg's point completely. The present options are rubbish, that's NOT what we're talking about. pg is not talking about Tofurky or tofu, he's talking about lab grown meat. Lab grown meat tastes, smells, cooks and is textured exactly like meat. If you can buy something that's much cheaper than meat, but has all the plus sides, why would you choose meat? Plus on top of that there's been a lot of media coverage the last 2 or 3 years that meat is causing a lot of problems environmentally. So there's an environmental and an economic reason to switch.
- chrisco255 8y ago
  Food is one of the deepest and most defining parts of a culture. Not only that but I grew up in a rural area and have killed my own meat. I don't have any qualms about it. The issues people have with it are purely a side effect of chic urban programming.
  - sls 8y ago
    And yet we know vegetarianism goes back to at least the 7th century BCE. So perhaps your glib ascription to an urban trendiness is unfounded.
    - 8y ago
mnm1 8y ago
This might be the case where you live, but it's definitely not the case in many countries around the world. I like to travel and part of the reason I gave up vegetarianism is because I was tired of eating the same stuff over and over again while traveling because there were no other options (caprese sandwich in Europe). Not to mention the extreme difficulty of limiting carbs and sugars while maintaining any kind of taste in vegetarian diets. As for synthetic meat, which is what pg is talking about, I can't possibly see it making inroads if it costs more than meat, which it sounds like pg is implying. Most people can barely afford meat as it is.
lukasm 8y ago
Restaurants have to have at least one veg option on the menu. This is mostly due to migration from different countries, not Vegans. By offering a veg meal you can serve a halal/kosher/"hindu" dish.

benj111 8y ago

There's 'meat' that we eat, and 'meat' as in dead animal. We've got quite good in the west at separating the 2. I don't think steak and other cuts of meat are going anywhere that quickly. But mince, 'chicken' breast, nuggets, sausages, that kind of stuff, I can see switching fairly quickly if there was a decent, cost effective alternative.

lackbeard 8y ago

I'm pretty sure the "hatred" towards vegans and vegetarians isn't actually hatred, but defensiveness. I think most meat-eaters wouldn't care about veganism and vegetarianism at all if there weren't so many vegans and vegetarians trying to moralize to the rest of world how they ought to be eating.

yazboo 8y ago
As a vegetarian who makes a point of being low key about it, not bringing it up unless asked, etc, there is almost endless judgment and questioning put forth in my direction. Every time I go out for a work lunch and order the black bean burger, or meatless sides at a BBQ joint or whatever, people want to dust off their freshman philosophy class ethical arguments. People with non-normative beliefs stand out from the normative culture just by virtue of existing. If we must defend ourselves constantly it sounds louder. I understand that can be annoying to people like you.
- chrisco255 8y ago
  We'll look at WeWork, they banned their employees from expensing non-pescatarian meals. I think you'd be hard pressed to find an example of an employer who banned their employees from expensing vegan meals.
  - yazboo 8y ago
    One company among the thousands upon thousands of non-vege-/pescatarian companies limiting their meal reimbursement policy does not support the argument that there exist "so many vegans and vegetarians trying to moralize to the rest of world." In fact, I believe it is evidence of the opposite: members of the normative culture are so protective of their own homogeneity, wittingly or not, that they consider a single example of heterodoxy to be intolerably deviant.
  - jtms 8y ago
    Wow, an employer dictating my diet is where I draw a HARD line of “get the ____ out of my life”. This seems discriminatory and unethical to say the least.

dkarl 8y ago

You're right, but meat will go up in price, and I think rich people aren't as stubborn when comes to sticking with class symbols that become unfashionable and stigmatized. I think high-quality meat will be like cigars, a former status symbol that a few eccentric people stick with for personal reasons but whose connection to opulence is stuck in the past. With fashion turning against it and most people sticking to mass-produced food for economic resaons, there will be a huge decline over the next generation or two. People in rural areas will be able to raise their own animals, but it will be forced underground as a moral outrage like cockfighting is today.

sametmax 8y ago

> There is a ton of literal hatred for veganism and vegetarians in this world. Think of the practically cult-like following bacon has. It's not that much hatred for veganism as rejection for something that is different in general. The first vegans came mainly from outcast communities, like hippies, or pet lovers. There is also the problem of feeling they are being judged: you'll often see somebody defensively saying "I could never be a vegan because of so and so" while nobody ever asked. At last, we still live in a society with a macho touch, and meat is associated with being manly. So really it's not about veganism, but about deeper issues from our society. The fact there are more veggies and vegan today is a good news though: it means the society is becomming more tolerant, more open minded, and have the technology to support a less destructive lifestyle. Like with every deep change in society, the best we can do is to help everybody get along and support each others. Cooking wars are just a symptom, and not the proper battle field.

DoreenMichele 8y ago

There is a ton of literal hatred for veganism and vegetarians in this world. I think there is a ton of literal hatred for vegans and vegetarians, who tend to position themselves as morally superior to meat eaters and brag about how they are kinder and gentler than meat eaters, often while being openly cruel people. They are frequently seemingly oblivious to the glaring contradictions between their self image and their actual behavior. I've known at least one person who used the label vegan while not actually being vegan. She was vegetarian and sometimes ate vegan, but calling herself vegan for the moral superiority points. She was a high-handed judgy person who was openly, consistently and persistently ugly to me when I was homeless and extremely ill. (When I have remarked on that to vegetarians trying to lecture people about stuff, they are almost never sympathetic to how awful that was for me. Their default reaction boils down to a callous and narcissistic "Get over your crap, honey. #NotAllVegans. Your one time totally unimportant negative experience shouldn't be used to impugn my stellar character!") Maybe if more people eat vegetarian burgers because, meh, climate change and clean eating for my own health and similar reasons without it being treated like some cult you need to join to save your soul, open hatred of meatless meals will go way down.

AnimalMuppet 8y ago
My daughter recently said something about "narcissistic ideology" - something that is adhered to, not because it's true, but because it gives a sense of moral superiority to the adherent. I think that's an interesting label for the type of person you had the misfortune to run into.
- DoreenMichele 8y ago
  It's unfortunate because it gives a bad name to a generally positive life choice and because there's really no means to determine if the toxic vegetarians are simply a vocal minority.
mratzloff 8y ago
You hear the same kind of thing about atheists. Consider that the few outspoken individuals you meet who are like this are rare and most people in that group are just quietly trying to live their lives. They're not seeking an argument or your approval, and you aren't even aware of most of the people you know who fit into that group. So your known encounters with that group are rare, and you carry your own personal bias, so any negative experience is magnified.

KozmoNau7 8y ago

I definitely see a lot of mockery of vegans among my circle of friends/acquaintances. Not outright hatred, but definitely mockery and it's not directed solely at vegans. It's just that vegans tend to be rather vocal about their choices, and they tend to be very social media adept and like to arrange eye-catching demonstrations in public, at least around here. I think a lot of the mockery comes from insecurity, I know some guys who are very adamant about their Manly Personality, which has meat, booze, beer and cigars as mandatory elements. There is a segment of vegans who are very enthusiastic about calling non-vegans "murderers" and shaming them for "eating corpses" and the like. It's a small fringe group, but they are very vocal, and are deliberately very attention-grabbing. Since I sometimes move in the same or adjacent social circles, I do know quite a few people who are vegan, and they're pretty relaxed about it, outside of occasional activities in protests and the like. I like talking about recipes with them, stuff like finding the best egg substitute for Belgian waffles, always a great way to get a vegan very enthusiastically chatty about a subject they really care about :-) I'm very open-minded about food, so while I do like dishes with meat, I'm also very enthusiastic about good veggie dishes, and I don't want to judge people for their dietary choices.

mratzloff 8y ago

I'm vegetarian. I never bring it up, but when other people find out about it they will not shut the fuck up about it. They will tell me why they aren't vegetarian, they will ask me why I'm one, and they will tell me about all the vegetarians or vegans in their lives who they claim won't stop talking about it. I suspect that's more than a little projection. Meat is just a part of some people's identity, just like sexuality, religion, and politics. And they react along the typical spectrum of reactions for those things.

throwaway392311 8y ago
Same here. I have a rule to never tell people about my diet unless they ask and never attempt at proselytizing. At least once a month somebody will tell me how preachy vegetarians are and attempt at interrogating me.