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He’s talking about meat stand-ins, things designed to mimic meat in every way. Definitely a market for that. But fantastic meat substitutes already exist. I’m

He’s talking about meat stand-ins, things designed to mimic meat in every way. Definitely a market for that. But fantastic meat substitutes already exist. I’m not vegetarian but never order meat with Indian or Chinese or Thai food and am thrilled with so-called mock duck, chicken and even fish. And when that’s not available, tofu does the job. At home, bolognese, tacos or chili with fake ground beef are awesome and I look forward to those being on menus too. I agree we’re at a tipping point.

hprotagonist 8y ago
Seitan is nice! A lot of americans who are in the demographic to be into substitute meat won't touch it because it is literally a blob of gluten with sauce.
- subpixel 8y ago
  I think where seitan excels is where the meat it is substituting is heavily seasoned and in smaller pieces. I’d never eat a seitan log as a Thanksgiving turkey substitute, but ironically one of the things you discover when you begin to substitute meat is that a lot of “classics” are flavorless. Chicken, turkey and most fish flesh can be bland and rubbery, which is why they are fried or smothered in sauces as a rule. Speaking of texture though I think Chipotle made a mistake by using tofu in their meat-substitute filling - it’s just too smooshy for most people. Seitan would have been more successful and I bet they were just afraid of using that word on the menu.
  - notus 8y ago
    They are only rubbery if you overcook them.
    - subpixel 8y ago
      Yes preparation matters and I’m not trying to say all meat is disgusting. Just relating the experience of discovering, upon regularly substituting meat in dishes, that there is nothing inherent to chicken turkey etc that makes it a preferred protein. Meat substitutes can be rubbery too.
  - hprotagonist 8y ago
    >Chicken, turkey and most fish flesh are bland and rubbery, which is why they are fried or smothered in sauces as a rule. Come visit. I'll bake you a chicken, and i only need about 6 ingredients to change your mind. (salt, pepper, chicken, butter, thyme, dijon mustard optional). Turkey has never been a favorite of mine, but I had an exceptionally good one that was salted and peppered and then cooked in a big green egg. Fish has a wide range of flavors, and you clobber them by overwhelming the dish with sauce. I prefer smoked (mmm, kippers. mmm, salmon) or raw (mmm, tuna) over cooked, for sure.
    - KozmoNau7 8y ago
      > "Come visit. I'll bake you a chicken, and i only need about 6 ingredients to change your mind. (salt, pepper, chicken, butter, thyme, dijon mustard optional)." That's my favorite way to make a good quality chicken shine by itself, with nothing masking it or covering it up. Cold butter and dijon mustard just works so well with chicken. I am extremely hesitant to replace actual meat for anything where you only process it very lightly, roast and the like. But for curries or lasagna and similar dishes, bring on the seitan and anything else. I'm a big fan of using mushrooms, both for their structure and for their flavors.
    - subpixel 8y ago
      What tastes good is salt, pepper, butter, thyme, dijon mustard, not to mention garlic, root vegetables, and more salt. I eat chicken, I have enjoyed it - all I'm saying is I've learned that going without chicken is doable, not by abstaining but by substituting. It's not apples-to-apples. Chicken tastes different than something that is not chicken. Having experienced both, I really prefer the not chicken.
    - cableshaft 8y ago
      Smoked salmon is awesome. I get that whenever I get sashimi. Might have to get some today now.
  - Jare 8y ago
    > a lot of “classics” are flavorless. Chicken, turkey and most fish flesh are bland and rubbery That's because most people enjoy tastes that are loud rather than subtle. It's a bit about educating your palate, but also about sitting down to enjoy the food itself rather than the food being an accessory to some other activity.
  - princeb 8y ago
    > most fish flesh can be bland and rubbery yikes. i think you will have a better experience eating in a seafaring culture - the british, french, norwegians, coastal china, japan, even new england? i think something is quite wrong if you think cod, haddock, sole, tuna, and salmon all taste the same.
    - subpixel 8y ago
      I didn't say all fish taste the same. But I maintain that once you have decided to stop eating meat, it becomes more fun to experiment with different textures of meat substitutes once you consider carefully how different meats are vs how we imagine meats to be. FWIW I grew up in Japan and live in New England. I know from fish. Good fish is hard to substitute but it can be done, e.g. Sichuan food is great with the fake stuff. But most fish eaten in America is in fact bland and rubbery (most of it is eaten at places like Red Lobster). PG's essay is about companies inventing the perfect tuna steak substitute. My point is you can use a lot of existing substitutes, in the right dishes.
- redisman 8y ago
  Seitan and tempeh are by far the tastiest "substitute meats" because they don't really try to morph into a "nugget" or a "burger" but just show what that plant protein is like at its best
  - Jill_the_Pill 8y ago
    Surprised you lump those together. Seitan is the best, but I've never found a tempeh recipe we can tolerate.
    - lucidguppy 8y ago
      I'd rather eat anything other than tempeh - it turns my stomach.
      - Jill_the_Pill 8y ago
        My kids call it "cat food granola bars."
      - bfrog 8y ago
        I've got a chocolate covered roach with your name on it! Now lets reconsider the "anything" part shall we.
    - samatman 8y ago
      I’m in Indonesia at the moment, where tempeh is a food, not a ‘meat substitute’. I enjoy it quite a bit, it has a mild mushroomy flavour and a nice texture. Consider frying it and serving with a coconut curry sauce or a sambal. Don’t think of it as meat or use it as a meat substitute, that’s setting up for failure to enjoy.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]

hprotagonist 8y ago

Seitan is nice! A lot of americans who are in the demographic to be into substitute meat won't touch it because it is literally a blob of gluten with sauce.

subpixel 8y ago
I think where seitan excels is where the meat it is substituting is heavily seasoned and in smaller pieces. I’d never eat a seitan log as a Thanksgiving turkey substitute, but ironically one of the things you discover when you begin to substitute meat is that a lot of “classics” are flavorless. Chicken, turkey and most fish flesh can be bland and rubbery, which is why they are fried or smothered in sauces as a rule. Speaking of texture though I think Chipotle made a mistake by using tofu in their meat-substitute filling - it’s just too smooshy for most people. Seitan would have been more successful and I bet they were just afraid of using that word on the menu.
- notus 8y ago
  They are only rubbery if you overcook them.
  - subpixel 8y ago
    Yes preparation matters and I’m not trying to say all meat is disgusting. Just relating the experience of discovering, upon regularly substituting meat in dishes, that there is nothing inherent to chicken turkey etc that makes it a preferred protein. Meat substitutes can be rubbery too.
- hprotagonist 8y ago
  >Chicken, turkey and most fish flesh are bland and rubbery, which is why they are fried or smothered in sauces as a rule. Come visit. I'll bake you a chicken, and i only need about 6 ingredients to change your mind. (salt, pepper, chicken, butter, thyme, dijon mustard optional). Turkey has never been a favorite of mine, but I had an exceptionally good one that was salted and peppered and then cooked in a big green egg. Fish has a wide range of flavors, and you clobber them by overwhelming the dish with sauce. I prefer smoked (mmm, kippers. mmm, salmon) or raw (mmm, tuna) over cooked, for sure.
  - KozmoNau7 8y ago
    > "Come visit. I'll bake you a chicken, and i only need about 6 ingredients to change your mind. (salt, pepper, chicken, butter, thyme, dijon mustard optional)." That's my favorite way to make a good quality chicken shine by itself, with nothing masking it or covering it up. Cold butter and dijon mustard just works so well with chicken. I am extremely hesitant to replace actual meat for anything where you only process it very lightly, roast and the like. But for curries or lasagna and similar dishes, bring on the seitan and anything else. I'm a big fan of using mushrooms, both for their structure and for their flavors.
  - subpixel 8y ago
    What tastes good is salt, pepper, butter, thyme, dijon mustard, not to mention garlic, root vegetables, and more salt. I eat chicken, I have enjoyed it - all I'm saying is I've learned that going without chicken is doable, not by abstaining but by substituting. It's not apples-to-apples. Chicken tastes different than something that is not chicken. Having experienced both, I really prefer the not chicken.
  - cableshaft 8y ago
    Smoked salmon is awesome. I get that whenever I get sashimi. Might have to get some today now.
- Jare 8y ago
  > a lot of “classics” are flavorless. Chicken, turkey and most fish flesh are bland and rubbery That's because most people enjoy tastes that are loud rather than subtle. It's a bit about educating your palate, but also about sitting down to enjoy the food itself rather than the food being an accessory to some other activity.
- princeb 8y ago
  > most fish flesh can be bland and rubbery yikes. i think you will have a better experience eating in a seafaring culture - the british, french, norwegians, coastal china, japan, even new england? i think something is quite wrong if you think cod, haddock, sole, tuna, and salmon all taste the same.
  - subpixel 8y ago
    I didn't say all fish taste the same. But I maintain that once you have decided to stop eating meat, it becomes more fun to experiment with different textures of meat substitutes once you consider carefully how different meats are vs how we imagine meats to be. FWIW I grew up in Japan and live in New England. I know from fish. Good fish is hard to substitute but it can be done, e.g. Sichuan food is great with the fake stuff. But most fish eaten in America is in fact bland and rubbery (most of it is eaten at places like Red Lobster). PG's essay is about companies inventing the perfect tuna steak substitute. My point is you can use a lot of existing substitutes, in the right dishes.
redisman 8y ago
Seitan and tempeh are by far the tastiest "substitute meats" because they don't really try to morph into a "nugget" or a "burger" but just show what that plant protein is like at its best
- Jill_the_Pill 8y ago
  Surprised you lump those together. Seitan is the best, but I've never found a tempeh recipe we can tolerate.
  - lucidguppy 8y ago
    I'd rather eat anything other than tempeh - it turns my stomach.
    - Jill_the_Pill 8y ago
      My kids call it "cat food granola bars."
    - bfrog 8y ago
      I've got a chocolate covered roach with your name on it! Now lets reconsider the "anything" part shall we.
  - samatman 8y ago
    I’m in Indonesia at the moment, where tempeh is a food, not a ‘meat substitute’. I enjoy it quite a bit, it has a mild mushroomy flavour and a nice texture. Consider frying it and serving with a coconut curry sauce or a sambal. Don’t think of it as meat or use it as a meat substitute, that’s setting up for failure to enjoy.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]