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Why Be Honest If Honesty Doesn’t Pay (1990)
- lbj 8y agoThis is such a depressing read on so many levels, but chiefly for me because I have a brain defect which compels me to be brutally honest at all times, think of it a Tourettes light. And when at times, it's seemed like bending the truth would equate to a 2500 km shortcut, I've comforted myself that pure honesty always wins in the end. Sad to see it doesnt.
- badpun 8y agoReally depends on how you define winning. I suspect an honest guy achieving a modest success will feel much happier than someone who managed to become a bilionaire thanks to his terrible personality.
- modzu 8y agoi have this too! interesting to see im not alone. its gotten me into lots of trouble but i still think of it as a strength (for one thing friends trust me, even though they cant trust me with secrets hah)
- DelightOne 8y agoWhat if a lie would save a person?
- lbj 8y agoCan you provide an example?
- tux1968 8y agoI have a family member who claims something similar. What i've come to understand though is that what he calls honesty is actually much better described as cruelty. It's not "truth" in the sense of objective fact, it's more his own personal opinion, which in fairness he does share truthfully with those who didn't request it. Somehow his personal truth just doesn't account mitigating factors or compassion for the frailty and failings in others. This results in him being very harsh in his truthful appraisals of others. Interestingly, he manages to find such compassion and nuance in rare moments of self-reflection.
- placebo 8y agoMy take on it is that it just boils down to what your highest insights are about what is important in life. If you believe that the maximum we can hope for is just to be sophisticated animals, acting in a sophisticated jungle, aiming for more sophisticated forms of animal goals (gain the most power, impregnate the most females etc.) then through that particular filter, indeed honesty doesn't necessarily pay off and dishonesty can be just another good tool in the toolbox to achieve king of the pack status. There are however those who aren't content with just being sophisticated animals. They want to to dive into the depths that no animal can reach, and that requires self-honesty, and uncompromising honesty at that. And there is no way you can truly be honest with yourself while being dishonest with others, for reasons which become evident once you walk this path. This path (if traveled to its full extent) pays way more dividends than any benefit gained from prizes given by the sophisticated jungle. So, whether honesty pays or not, really depends on what sort of existence you seek.
- lbj 8y agoThat was surprisingly insightful, thanks!
- danbolt 8y ago“Above all, don't lie to yourself. The man who lies to himself and listens to his own lie comes to a point that he cannot distinguish the truth within him, or around him, and so loses all respect for himself and for others. And having no respect he ceases to love.” — Fyodor Dostoevsky
- galfarragem 8y agoWhy? Peace of mind and stronger relationships.
- coldtea 8y agoIt could just as easily lead to trouble and weaker relationships...
- orsenthil 8y agoHonesty in psychology is equated with sanity, and correlates linearly with stability, and longevity of the person.
- Cursuviam 8y agoIt pays to be seen as honest, not actually honest.
- dfilppi 8y agoBingo. This is the final optimization.
- chongli 8y agoIt's much easier to be actually honest. When you lie you have to keep track of your lies, otherwise you might slip up and get caught. It can become a huge mental burden if you're lying all the time and juggling many different stories with different people. When you're honest, on the other hand, it's easy most of the time because you just tell people what you know to be true.
- Avshalom 8y agoI mean I suppose if you're maintaining like wildly different identities. In general though it's not any different than remembering which stories and anecdotes you've already told people, besides which most people just don't really care to delve into inconsistencies in each other chalking it up to fallible memory on one or the other parties.
- jjoonathan 8y ago> you have to keep track of your lies, otherwise you might slip up and get caught I wish that were the case, but it isn't. There are many other strategies for avoiding the negative consequences of lying that scale better. Society is really, really bad at holding liars accountable. Just look at President Trump -- or a couple of rungs up your corporate hierarchy.
- chongli 8y agoIt's different for Trump. He's clearly got a personality disorder within the dark triad. He doesn't seem to care how many times he gets caught lying. I'm talking about generally honest, regular people occasionally lying for the sake of convenience or discomfort. Telling lies to get out of an invitation to visit with a relative you don't like, for example. Say your annoying uncle invites you for dinner and you tell him you're sick, then later he catches you at the driving range. Basically the sorts of things you see on Curb [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curb_Your_Enthusiasm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curb_Your_Enthusiasm
- rjf72 8y agoI'm curious if the value of dishonesty has increased as police forces and their efficiencies have increased. In times past if somebody felt sufficiently screwed, there was a chance for quite severe consequences. People were armed, detective work was primitive, and local legal systems had a defacto defense of 'he deserved it.' But today you can screw millions of people over and feel pretty safe about it. People are generally not armed, police work is of a much higher quality and a perceived quality even higher than that (CSI effect [1]), and criminal courts don't tend to consider justifiability except in an extremely narrow set of situations such as self defense. It means that, in practice, the worst consequence you can ever expect to face for a bad action is the legal consequence for such. And even if everybody 'knows' you did it, so long as you can pose any sort of a defense to offer reasonable doubt you stand a pretty decent chance of getting off. And highly paid lawyers, alongside a convoluted and ever more esoteric legal system, tend to be pretty good at doing just that. I'm not making a value judgement on systems of past or present. I simply find unintended consequences remarkably interesting. A reasonable argument that better police forces and improved legal systems could somehow drive dishonest and unlawful behavior would rank pretty high up there on something nobody would ever intend. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSI_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSI_effect
- sametmax 8y agoWhen I was in my twenties, I realized it was easier to get laid by being an asshole, so I did just that. After a while, it hit me: this strategy made me deeply unhappy. With time I observed a lot my mental process, mood and behavior, and I noticed that things like being rude, cheating, being selfish, etc. while paying off on the short run, were affecting my long time happiness. Apparently I was not made for that. Lying, is one of those things. I can lie. I'm actually a very good lier, and a decent actor. But I keep it in check, doing it mostly because humans tolerate badly total honesty, or sometime because I'm weak. Otherwise I avoid it, not for moral reason, be because somehow, I find it strongly unsatisfying. It's not even a judgemental voice in my head stating that it's wrong. It just feels like writting with the left hand with a boxing glove: I can do it with training but it's just not the experience I wish for. I met many people sharing the same experience, but I can't say everybody feels like this. However, it seems a damn good reason to be honest, even when it doesn't pay.
- ponderatul 8y agoI am in my twenties. I feel the same, just not sure about the negative effects on longterm happiness. I'm sure there's a balance there to be attained. But knowing you are capable of lying, being a jerk, cheating and what that gives you, is very powerful. In general I think there's a lot to learn from bad people. Which is an idea lot of people dismiss.
- duedl0r 8y agoThat's a pretty stupid way of living. But hey, don't mind me, I'm old.. There is no balance to be attained in being a jerk/cheater or whatever. It's like saying: I have the option of breathing or not breathing, so let's get a good balance. No! If you want to learn from bad people: Do it, but use it for good. For example in identifying people who are bad, or want to take advantage of you/others. But certainly not to get a balance. And btw, I always hope, people with questionable opinions get screwed by someone with the same questionable view. Let's hope you'll learn your lesson.
- sametmax 8y ago
- FartyMcFarter 8y agoIf you're not honest, sooner or later people who are close to you will know that. Why should they treat you better than you treat other people? Be honest so you can live with yourself. So that you have nothing to feel guilty about. So that you can reasonably expect and demand other people to treat you as well as you treat others.
- Scarbutt 8y agoOne issue is that dishonest people will use the honesty of some against them
- lcall 8y agoThat happens. I believe in God and that we will be rewarded or punished per our actions. That long-considered belief gives me confidence and peace to go forward even when it is really hard (like the example you give). I have tried to explain and elaborate, here: http://lukecall.net/e-9223372036854618458.html http://lukecall.net/e-9223372036854618458.html EDIT: Having said that, I also believe trust is earned and important questions deserve corroboration and ongoing verification whenever that makes sense.
- moron4hire 8y agoDishonesty only pays off in the short term. It basically requires you to constantly be on the move and into new social circles to avoid your reputation. Wherever you are, whether you're honest ot dishonest, your reputation eventually catches up with you. Which one do you want catching up with you? Where I see people saying, "honesty doesn't pay off," what they are usually talking about is being a doormat. You can be an honest, nice person without letting people exploit you. In fact, it is more honest, to tell people "no, I can't do that" than to constantly bend over backwards to get people's approval.
- billybatson 8y agoI think a distinction to be made here is the difference between being "nice" and being "kind". The former is someone who would bend over backwards and not enforce or consider their own boundaries. The latter is someone who has the same intention but is mindful of what their own personal values are and having self-respect. It's tough because they both have the same intention, but the execution of it is different. I feel somewhat shameful of not learning the distinction until very recently, but am still grateful for learning it at all.
- lcall 8y agoThe short version: The real reason, perhaps unpopular to state it, is that we will be happier, now and in the next life, with a clear conscience. The longer version: there is a God, this life is not our beginning nor our end, we will be rewarded or punished according to our choices, someday everything about us will be known, but God can help us change now, to have peace, and happiness that lasts, families that are happy, tools to address the problems of life, and a reason for confidence to go on when things are really hard, etc, etc. That sounds like a sermon but I have thought about it for a very long time and considered my reasons for belief, which I have tried to explain: http://lukecall.net http://lukecall.net (a lightweight site, just text; it attempts to be a skimmable outline of info where you click what you find interesting, for more info.) EDIT: And no matter one's worldview: after many years of observing, reading and learning from experiences, it seems so very clear that we all get farther if we work together and can help & trust each other.
- paulryanrogers 8y ago> there is a God, this life is not our beginning nor our end, Downvoted because this is an extraordinary claim without falsifiable evidence. And my experience following that path was not a harmonious one. Perhaps it is better for us to cooperate more, but I'm not convinced that wildly varied interpretations of imaginary authorities are the best way.
- lcall 8y agoIn the link I documented at length why the evidence is sufficient for me, after long consideration, experience, and testing. And it gives me great comfort and direction etc. (And I mention somewhere down in there how it relates to science, which I greatly respect.)
- vokep 8y agoIts an extraordinary claim, but its religion, it kinda starts with extraordinary unfalsifiable claims from the start. Truth is, it doesn't matter. Ideas of an after-life and such may or may not be true, but the instructions for how to live here on Earth are the same regardless of the belief: Try your best to be a good person and when the time comes, leave this world having made it better, not worse. Any religious story comes down to teaching that lesson ultimately, perhaps ideas of reincarnation or after-life are to provide a story to believe as extra motivation when people come to believe things like "Why be honest if honesty doesn't pay". If you've come to believe that, if you also believe dishonesty will result in very real very bad things for you eventually, you may act honestly anyways. Just because religion isn't falsifiable in a strict scientific sense doesn't mean there is no value to discussing it. There is still a logic to it that can be understood and interesting consequential conclusions drawn from.
- smallgovt 8y agoI've found that people fall along a spectrum of conscience that determines how bad you feel when you lie (independent of the consequences). Where you fall on this spectrum is determined by a combination of genetics, family values, and societal values. There are people who don't feel bad about lying in any situation e.g. sociopaths and pscyopaths. There are people who only feel bad lying in certain situations (the situations that society doesn't give a pass to). Then, there are people who feel bad lying in all situations (typically, bc of the values they inherited from their parents and upbringing). I say all this because I think the optimal behavior when it comes to lying frequency is entirely dependent on where you fall on this spectrum. If you are a psycopath, you can be happy with a code of conduct that allows frequent lying and covering up your lies. If you feel terrible about lying in all situations, then you shouldn't lie at all. Unless you do really hard work on changing your value structure, you're sort of tied to a solution, and if you want to be happy, it behooves you to follow it.
- terrycody 8y agono, it surely pays you, it pays you comfortable, and feel good and divine.