6 ms·

If you lived in North Korea, do you think your North Korean friends who like the job their government is doing would outweight those who don't? Would you dare

If you lived in North Korea, do you think your North Korean friends who like the job their government is doing would outweight those who don't? Would you dare to criticize the government if you were in their position? This video does a great job at illustrating the situation your Chinese friends face: https://vimeo.com/44078865 https://vimeo.com/44078865

PakG1 8y ago
That's not a fair comparison because Chinese citizens are a lot more educated and aware than you make it sound. North Koreans are a lot more suppressed, and most of them have never been outside of their country. You also make it sound like I can't have real heart-to-heart debates with my Chinese friends due to their fear of being caught; I assure you these are their real opinions. What I've found is that the average educated Chinese person has more understanding of western governments than the average western person has understanding of the Chinese government. I don't know if that colours western opinions, but I do believe my lack of knowledge coloured mine some time ago. A number of my Chinese friends are well-educated, and many of them received masters degrees from top universities in the US. Many of them make 6-figure salaries when converted to USD, working for the likes of IBM, Tesla, and Walmart, as well as your usual Chinese big companies and smaller startups. But I honestly do not see a lot of difference in the opinion proportions when I compare my rich, educated friends with my poor, non-educated friends. Look, I'm a Christian, right? As a Christian, I'm very well aware of what my Chinese friends could face, especially my Christian Chinese friends, if they cross the government. I know what's happened in the past too. It's a complex situation where yes, some people are afraid. But in my experience, the afraid people are outnumbered by people who are satisfied and very optimistic. And many of my friends who are satisfied are not blindly satisfied. Again, they're educated, intelligent, and aware. They see that the future is complex and have chosen to agree that the government's current policies are mostly the best way forward. They can match me hit for hit in any debate. Again, when I did a deep dive into Chinese history, I started to see very deep currents that influenced why China's domestic policies, economic policies, and foreign policies are what they are today, and why they make sense in this context. Would I ever want to become a Chinese citizen? No, I can't agree with a lot of this stuff. I just understand it better than I used to. A friend of mine who got his masters in environmental science at Texas A&M said to me, "The west thought that we needed democracy and freedoms to be happy. Honestly, we just wanted a better standard of living, we don't need that other stuff." The actual comprehensive sentiments of my friends are of course a bit more complex, but one of the commenters here who speaks as an African empathizes quite well with this general sentiment. If the economy every collapsed into oblivion, I guess we might see another revolution. China has had a lot of them in the last 100 years. But these guys mostly have confidence in their government. They feel things are getting better, not worse, and they feel this will continue. That's just a survey of my friends from all walks of Chinese life. I don't think anything is gained going back and forth here. You have your set of friends who tell you one thing, and I have my set of friends who tell me something else. I think it's easier for me to believe my set of friends, as I think they're quite a diverse group across multiple demographic dimensions. If your friends are likewise so diverse, I don't know, what should I say? For whatever reason, the two of us are being told different things by people we trust.
- dave_sullivan 8y ago
  > I don't think anything is gained going back and forth here. You have your set of friends who tell you one thing, and I have my set of friends who tell me something else. That is kind of the stalemate isn't it? But I'm just wondering, what are you actually advocating here? I don't think you're advocating for authoritarian rule generally as you mention you wouldn't want to become a Chinese citizen yourself. I think you're advocating for people to learn Chinese history and that the CCP's decisions would make sense in that context. I do know a bit about Chinese history and their government's decisions do make sense in historical context (as did Stalin's decisions), but they are still bad decisions made by practically evil people. They are an authoritarian government. The people are happy living under authoritarian rule? Fine, Stockholm syndrome is a thing. That still doesn't make authoritarian rule OK in my opinion. Some may differ on that, but I actually would go so far as to say "authoritarian governments are bad" full stop. And yes it's a sliding scale in that the US is authoritarian in many ways, I'm not ok with that either. I think China's people are in an abusive relationship with their government; many of them are so abused that they've come to love their abuser, or think they do. A whole society trading their freedom for gold and rationalizing it any way they can. But do we actually disagree?
  - PakG1 8y ago
    >> I do know a bit about Chinese history and their government's decisions do make sense in historical context (as did Stalin's decisions), but they are still bad decisions made by practically evil people. When I talk about how Chinese history affected my understanding of current Chinese government policies, I am talking about 5000 years of Chinese history, not the small blip that is post-Mao.
  - PakG1 8y ago
    I'm not sure we actually disagree on many points. We do disagree on some points. For example, what you view as an abusive relationship, I think is more simply a completely different worldview as to what are considered acceptable norms in society. But it's easy for you to look at the relationship and think it's abusive because of your foundational worldview about what is normal and what is OK, especially considering the likely difference between power distance index values between yourself and Chinese culture. edit: This reminds me of a business case about cross-cultural work I had to learn for my MBA. It is amazing how much a real-life company failed in China only simply because lack of cultural understanding led to immense distrust between the two parties, even though both parties really actually wanted to work with each other. But their cultural ignorance could only lead them to both believe that they couldn't trust each other, as they were completely misunderstanding each other's messages and signals. I can see that happening in general when analyzing another person's society. The point of the case was that cultural misunderstanding tends to lead to negative assumptions, rather than benefit of the doubt. :endedit I am definitely mostly saying that I've learned that the world has a lot more nuance than I realized when I was younger, and that we'd all do well if we realized that. It allows for better dialogue among people, especially with those who are different from us. For example, I imagine if Americans can figure that out, the American government and society will be much stronger; instead, there just seems to be an insane amount of partisanship that makes things worse, and no way to cross the aisle and bridge the gap. I will say that despite all the issues I have with the Chinese government, I will not say that "authoritarian governments are bad" full stop. I used to think like that. I don't anymore after realizing how the world is not so black and white. If we demonize a third party, it is easier to not understand the third party. The people responsible for deradicalizing ISIS converts that ran away from Europe are able to understand deeper root causes. They don't just hate people for joining ISIS, nor do they just simply hate ISIS. They are able to understand the other side, and it is because of their expansive knowledge and empathy that they are able to communicate with such people. As Ender Wiggin once said: "In the moment when I truly understand my enemy, understand him well enough to defeat him, then in that very moment I also love him. I think it's impossible to really understand somebody, what they want, what they believe, and not love them the way they love themselves." Martin Jacques is an excellent scholar who I think understands China really, really well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imhUmLtlZpw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imhUmLtlZpw

PakG1 8y ago

That's not a fair comparison because Chinese citizens are a lot more educated and aware than you make it sound. North Koreans are a lot more suppressed, and most of them have never been outside of their country. You also make it sound like I can't have real heart-to-heart debates with my Chinese friends due to their fear of being caught; I assure you these are their real opinions. What I've found is that the average educated Chinese person has more understanding of western governments than the average western person has understanding of the Chinese government. I don't know if that colours western opinions, but I do believe my lack of knowledge coloured mine some time ago. A number of my Chinese friends are well-educated, and many of them received masters degrees from top universities in the US. Many of them make 6-figure salaries when converted to USD, working for the likes of IBM, Tesla, and Walmart, as well as your usual Chinese big companies and smaller startups. But I honestly do not see a lot of difference in the opinion proportions when I compare my rich, educated friends with my poor, non-educated friends. Look, I'm a Christian, right? As a Christian, I'm very well aware of what my Chinese friends could face, especially my Christian Chinese friends, if they cross the government. I know what's happened in the past too. It's a complex situation where yes, some people are afraid. But in my experience, the afraid people are outnumbered by people who are satisfied and very optimistic. And many of my friends who are satisfied are not blindly satisfied. Again, they're educated, intelligent, and aware. They see that the future is complex and have chosen to agree that the government's current policies are mostly the best way forward. They can match me hit for hit in any debate. Again, when I did a deep dive into Chinese history, I started to see very deep currents that influenced why China's domestic policies, economic policies, and foreign policies are what they are today, and why they make sense in this context. Would I ever want to become a Chinese citizen? No, I can't agree with a lot of this stuff. I just understand it better than I used to. A friend of mine who got his masters in environmental science at Texas A&M said to me, "The west thought that we needed democracy and freedoms to be happy. Honestly, we just wanted a better standard of living, we don't need that other stuff." The actual comprehensive sentiments of my friends are of course a bit more complex, but one of the commenters here who speaks as an African empathizes quite well with this general sentiment. If the economy every collapsed into oblivion, I guess we might see another revolution. China has had a lot of them in the last 100 years. But these guys mostly have confidence in their government. They feel things are getting better, not worse, and they feel this will continue. That's just a survey of my friends from all walks of Chinese life. I don't think anything is gained going back and forth here. You have your set of friends who tell you one thing, and I have my set of friends who tell me something else. I think it's easier for me to believe my set of friends, as I think they're quite a diverse group across multiple demographic dimensions. If your friends are likewise so diverse, I don't know, what should I say? For whatever reason, the two of us are being told different things by people we trust.

dave_sullivan 8y ago
> I don't think anything is gained going back and forth here. You have your set of friends who tell you one thing, and I have my set of friends who tell me something else. That is kind of the stalemate isn't it? But I'm just wondering, what are you actually advocating here? I don't think you're advocating for authoritarian rule generally as you mention you wouldn't want to become a Chinese citizen yourself. I think you're advocating for people to learn Chinese history and that the CCP's decisions would make sense in that context. I do know a bit about Chinese history and their government's decisions do make sense in historical context (as did Stalin's decisions), but they are still bad decisions made by practically evil people. They are an authoritarian government. The people are happy living under authoritarian rule? Fine, Stockholm syndrome is a thing. That still doesn't make authoritarian rule OK in my opinion. Some may differ on that, but I actually would go so far as to say "authoritarian governments are bad" full stop. And yes it's a sliding scale in that the US is authoritarian in many ways, I'm not ok with that either. I think China's people are in an abusive relationship with their government; many of them are so abused that they've come to love their abuser, or think they do. A whole society trading their freedom for gold and rationalizing it any way they can. But do we actually disagree?
- PakG1 8y ago
  >> I do know a bit about Chinese history and their government's decisions do make sense in historical context (as did Stalin's decisions), but they are still bad decisions made by practically evil people. When I talk about how Chinese history affected my understanding of current Chinese government policies, I am talking about 5000 years of Chinese history, not the small blip that is post-Mao.
- PakG1 8y ago
  I'm not sure we actually disagree on many points. We do disagree on some points. For example, what you view as an abusive relationship, I think is more simply a completely different worldview as to what are considered acceptable norms in society. But it's easy for you to look at the relationship and think it's abusive because of your foundational worldview about what is normal and what is OK, especially considering the likely difference between power distance index values between yourself and Chinese culture. edit: This reminds me of a business case about cross-cultural work I had to learn for my MBA. It is amazing how much a real-life company failed in China only simply because lack of cultural understanding led to immense distrust between the two parties, even though both parties really actually wanted to work with each other. But their cultural ignorance could only lead them to both believe that they couldn't trust each other, as they were completely misunderstanding each other's messages and signals. I can see that happening in general when analyzing another person's society. The point of the case was that cultural misunderstanding tends to lead to negative assumptions, rather than benefit of the doubt. :endedit I am definitely mostly saying that I've learned that the world has a lot more nuance than I realized when I was younger, and that we'd all do well if we realized that. It allows for better dialogue among people, especially with those who are different from us. For example, I imagine if Americans can figure that out, the American government and society will be much stronger; instead, there just seems to be an insane amount of partisanship that makes things worse, and no way to cross the aisle and bridge the gap. I will say that despite all the issues I have with the Chinese government, I will not say that "authoritarian governments are bad" full stop. I used to think like that. I don't anymore after realizing how the world is not so black and white. If we demonize a third party, it is easier to not understand the third party. The people responsible for deradicalizing ISIS converts that ran away from Europe are able to understand deeper root causes. They don't just hate people for joining ISIS, nor do they just simply hate ISIS. They are able to understand the other side, and it is because of their expansive knowledge and empathy that they are able to communicate with such people. As Ender Wiggin once said: "In the moment when I truly understand my enemy, understand him well enough to defeat him, then in that very moment I also love him. I think it's impossible to really understand somebody, what they want, what they believe, and not love them the way they love themselves." Martin Jacques is an excellent scholar who I think understands China really, really well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imhUmLtlZpw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imhUmLtlZpw