7 ms·

This is just an anecdote but being a PhD student at a well-known university in CS I often hear from undergrads (via teaching) what they think about companies/wh

This is just an anecdote but being a PhD student at a well-known university in CS I often hear from undergrads (via teaching) what they think about companies/where they go for internships. Observationally, ethics does not even enter the equation. Especially career-driven students from backgrounds where name-brand prestige is important just want such a name-brand on their CV. Not that faculty are any better given how many academics effectively sign away their lab to FB through 'collaborations'. All they see is resources to use, name-brand recognition, a big personal pay-check, and publicity for their work. What I find most mystifying is that this is a literal non-topic. At best someone may forward a blogpost about a security leak and make a snarky comment, but I have never witnessed any political discussion.

mehrdadn 8y ago
I feel like it's difficult to bring it up. What are you going to do... tell your friends/students their next job is at an unethical company? Also, people generally believe it's quite possible to work on good things in a company that also does bad things. (And many of them indeed will.) So it's not the most compelling argument that you shouldn't work with X/Y/Z because they did bad thing W.
- JohnFen 8y ago
  > What are you going to do... tell your friends/students their next job is at an unethical company? Yes.
- DyslexicAtheist 8y ago
  > What are you going to do... tell your friends/students mentors, professors and friends can have a lot of influence which (imo) could be a moral and ethical obligation one may like to exercise? If you were receiving advise or learning as a junior and looking for direction from a mentor (or any person you feel you can learn from and also trust), wouldn't you appreciate hearing their personal opinion on a subject, and how they arrived at their believes? > Also, people generally believe it's quite possible to work on good things in a company that also does bad things. (And many of them indeed will.) So it's not the most compelling argument that you shouldn't work with X/Y/Z because they did bad thing W. it's difficult if not impossible to convince somebody that a company they just passed their 1st interview with, to refuse because of ethics. Especially if they never had a job they might say I'll do it anyway and see for myself, I can still bail if it's that bad. But employees already working there have more power by changing things from within. I think this is why point above is valid because everyone has mentors so speaking up (without judgement) is key. Only by changing the inside it's possible to have a dialogue about impact on environment/society and only by talking about it will we eventually be able to abolish the practice of labeling any such discussion as anti-profit or social-justice seeking. It does affect the long-term image and how the company/brand will be perceived in the long run.
- alxlaz 8y ago
  YES! This is particularly important for young professionals! It's super important for fresh graduates, who enrolled in CS/CompEng because of how enthusiastic they are about technology to hear this stuff! Why? Because, while we're wondering whether or not ethics is even something that we should bring up in a discussion like this, Facebook has PR and recruiting departments full of smart people who are actively working on getting these folks on board. And when you've spent the last four years of your life studying a highly-competitive field, in which there's barely any room for the study of philosophy, ethics and humanities, it's pretty hard to figure out this stuff on your own. So damn right tell friends/students their next job is at an unethical company. I mentor interns every year, and whenever one of them asks me about companies like Facebook or Google, I absolutely tell them that I would never work there. I tell their recruiters the same thing. I tell my friends from outside the tech world the same thing. > Also, people generally believe it's quite possible to work on good things in a company that also does bad things. The problem isn't that you can't do good things, the problem is that these companies use them to whatabout the media away from the bad things they do. You think Facebook worked on those "Mark yourself as safe" thing out of the goodness of their heart? As if it brings them any kind of money? No -- they do it to capture a little bit more of their attention, and to point out to any reporter that questions their morale that they're totally on the Light Side of the Force, just look at how many users rely on us to let their friends know they're fine.
- incongruity 8y ago
  The Socratic method might be a viable option - ask questions. Ask if they have concerns. Ask where their hard-stop lines are. Be friendly about it - attacks don’t help things but conversations can, even if it doesn’t look like it in the moment. Bringing the topic up and making it something people talk about will actually start to help.
joeseeder 8y ago
I have had a quick run of an analysis - Academically vs Self trained Computer Engineers among my peers. From the small sample, it shows very strong correlation between working in ethically questionable organisations and finishing Academia. Is the opposite for most of my Self trained peers.
- daveFNbuck 8y ago
  What does "finishing Academia" mean?
  - ralusek 8y ago
    I'm gonna assume graduating with at least BS, probably Computer Science.
    - daveFNbuck 8y ago
      If that's the case, the apparent correlation probably has more to do with hiring practices than ethical differences between the groups.
- sizzle 8y ago
  I'd argue that top bay area tech companies are recruiting CS degree holders at higher rates than bootcamp self taught types. It may be harder for self taught types to get past the HR recruiting filter so they settle for second tier companies that are more ethical. Also someone grinding through a rigorous CS degree might want the biggest ROI vs a self taught type that is happy to take what they can get without and still get paid well without the debt of a CS degree. I don't think we can draw any conclusions and to state the obvious, correlation =/ causation.
- 4ad 8y ago
  Anecdotal evidence, but that has been my experience as well.
  - leesalminen 8y ago
detaro 8y ago
At my German university that was a topic that regularly came up around internships, job fairs, and among those currently graduating and looking for jobs, with a wide range of opinions.
stilist 8y ago
Do you ever have (and use) opportunities to bring up the ethical aspects? It’s becoming a more prominent thing for people in the industry, and it makes sense to discuss before people leave academia. I know it’s not your problem to solve, but I think if the university isn’t talking about the ethical considerations it’s tacitly endorsing the ‘technology is value-neutral’ philosophy that’s begun to get some pushback.
- high_derivative 8y ago
  I have with friends, but with undergraduates this is a bit more difficult. An undergrad tells me they are going to FB for an internship. I am not their tutor or mentor beyond teaching. They have gone through stress and trouble for their internship, and it's too late to get something else for the year. The only thing I can do in this instance (where there is no chance at all they would give up their internship to do nothing) is make them feel bad about it. Uncomfortable situation. Honestly, I think the department should step up and disinvite FB from campus events and not allow them to advertise. It should also hold courses on ethical impact of technology and discuss a few cases of misuse.

mehrdadn 8y ago

I feel like it's difficult to bring it up. What are you going to do... tell your friends/students their next job is at an unethical company? Also, people generally believe it's quite possible to work on good things in a company that also does bad things. (And many of them indeed will.) So it's not the most compelling argument that you shouldn't work with X/Y/Z because they did bad thing W.

JohnFen 8y ago
> What are you going to do... tell your friends/students their next job is at an unethical company? Yes.
DyslexicAtheist 8y ago
> What are you going to do... tell your friends/students mentors, professors and friends can have a lot of influence which (imo) could be a moral and ethical obligation one may like to exercise? If you were receiving advise or learning as a junior and looking for direction from a mentor (or any person you feel you can learn from and also trust), wouldn't you appreciate hearing their personal opinion on a subject, and how they arrived at their believes? > Also, people generally believe it's quite possible to work on good things in a company that also does bad things. (And many of them indeed will.) So it's not the most compelling argument that you shouldn't work with X/Y/Z because they did bad thing W. it's difficult if not impossible to convince somebody that a company they just passed their 1st interview with, to refuse because of ethics. Especially if they never had a job they might say I'll do it anyway and see for myself, I can still bail if it's that bad. But employees already working there have more power by changing things from within. I think this is why point above is valid because everyone has mentors so speaking up (without judgement) is key. Only by changing the inside it's possible to have a dialogue about impact on environment/society and only by talking about it will we eventually be able to abolish the practice of labeling any such discussion as anti-profit or social-justice seeking. It does affect the long-term image and how the company/brand will be perceived in the long run.
alxlaz 8y ago
YES! This is particularly important for young professionals! It's super important for fresh graduates, who enrolled in CS/CompEng because of how enthusiastic they are about technology to hear this stuff! Why? Because, while we're wondering whether or not ethics is even something that we should bring up in a discussion like this, Facebook has PR and recruiting departments full of smart people who are actively working on getting these folks on board. And when you've spent the last four years of your life studying a highly-competitive field, in which there's barely any room for the study of philosophy, ethics and humanities, it's pretty hard to figure out this stuff on your own. So damn right tell friends/students their next job is at an unethical company. I mentor interns every year, and whenever one of them asks me about companies like Facebook or Google, I absolutely tell them that I would never work there. I tell their recruiters the same thing. I tell my friends from outside the tech world the same thing. > Also, people generally believe it's quite possible to work on good things in a company that also does bad things. The problem isn't that you can't do good things, the problem is that these companies use them to whatabout the media away from the bad things they do. You think Facebook worked on those "Mark yourself as safe" thing out of the goodness of their heart? As if it brings them any kind of money? No -- they do it to capture a little bit more of their attention, and to point out to any reporter that questions their morale that they're totally on the Light Side of the Force, just look at how many users rely on us to let their friends know they're fine.
incongruity 8y ago
The Socratic method might be a viable option - ask questions. Ask if they have concerns. Ask where their hard-stop lines are. Be friendly about it - attacks don’t help things but conversations can, even if it doesn’t look like it in the moment. Bringing the topic up and making it something people talk about will actually start to help.

joeseeder 8y ago

I have had a quick run of an analysis - Academically vs Self trained Computer Engineers among my peers. From the small sample, it shows very strong correlation between working in ethically questionable organisations and finishing Academia. Is the opposite for most of my Self trained peers.

daveFNbuck 8y ago
What does "finishing Academia" mean?
- ralusek 8y ago
  I'm gonna assume graduating with at least BS, probably Computer Science.
  - daveFNbuck 8y ago
    If that's the case, the apparent correlation probably has more to do with hiring practices than ethical differences between the groups.
sizzle 8y ago
I'd argue that top bay area tech companies are recruiting CS degree holders at higher rates than bootcamp self taught types. It may be harder for self taught types to get past the HR recruiting filter so they settle for second tier companies that are more ethical. Also someone grinding through a rigorous CS degree might want the biggest ROI vs a self taught type that is happy to take what they can get without and still get paid well without the debt of a CS degree. I don't think we can draw any conclusions and to state the obvious, correlation =/ causation.
4ad 8y ago
Anecdotal evidence, but that has been my experience as well.
- leesalminen 8y ago

detaro 8y ago

At my German university that was a topic that regularly came up around internships, job fairs, and among those currently graduating and looking for jobs, with a wide range of opinions.

stilist 8y ago

Do you ever have (and use) opportunities to bring up the ethical aspects? It’s becoming a more prominent thing for people in the industry, and it makes sense to discuss before people leave academia. I know it’s not your problem to solve, but I think if the university isn’t talking about the ethical considerations it’s tacitly endorsing the ‘technology is value-neutral’ philosophy that’s begun to get some pushback.

high_derivative 8y ago
I have with friends, but with undergraduates this is a bit more difficult. An undergrad tells me they are going to FB for an internship. I am not their tutor or mentor beyond teaching. They have gone through stress and trouble for their internship, and it's too late to get something else for the year. The only thing I can do in this instance (where there is no chance at all they would give up their internship to do nothing) is make them feel bad about it. Uncomfortable situation. Honestly, I think the department should step up and disinvite FB from campus events and not allow them to advertise. It should also hold courses on ethical impact of technology and discuss a few cases of misuse.