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Writing this from China- it’s hard to really understand how little the Chinese seem to care about any of this. The systems that so obsess western writers seem t

Writing this from China- it’s hard to really understand how little the Chinese seem to care about any of this. The systems that so obsess western writers seem to have absolutely no effect on Chinese society, and the majority of these new systems seem to be replacing similar but more intrusive systems of human-to-human checks. The concerns are warranted, but the interest approaches zero in the culture here.

gammateam 8y ago
Writing this from the West, pointing this out is a great way to lose friends Different kind of firewall
smithmayowa 8y ago
Being an African I never understood why most westerners don't get the simple fact that to people who have been starving to death any policy or government that creates wealth for the majority of them is very welcome to them irrespective of their poor human rights disadvantages.
- deugtniet 8y ago
  China is hardly starving, though. I think we're (The world as a whole) blindly running into a state of boundless surveillance. In former East Germany, many people did not mind being watched by the StaSi initially. But it became so pervasive that voicing an opinion was dangerous, and there was much resentment. In my personal interactions with Chinese invididuals this resentment is also present, although they will not state it explicitly. For instance: Wondering why in a communist country it cost money to get healthcare, while in Europe it's nearly free.
  - luckylion 8y ago
    > China is hardly starving, though. Well, a lot of them were rather close to that before the revolution. I mean, it's one thing to "not starve" and quite another to have your living standards raised substantially. People are happy to give up freedom for better living standards. Imagine if you could live two, three wealth/social classes higher than your current one, and all you need to give up is your right to criticize the government. That's pretty tempting to me, and I'm sure to a lot of other people as well. I think the best antidote is to steadily improve living conditions. Don't keep your lower class in intergenerational poverty and all that.
  - maxxxxx 8y ago
    We shouldn’t call china a communist country. It’s something else and calling it communist doesn’t explain anything other than maybe the words they are using.
    - mc32 8y ago
      Importantly they claim themselves to be. But also the political system is still communist even if the economic system isn’t. During Leninism, the kulaks were incentivized. They needed a capitalist system; it wasn’t till Stalin willed it that confiscations happened and starvation happened by the millions. So communism historically has allowed capitalism, when expedient. What’s more officially it’s “Socialism with Chinese Characteristics for a New Era[1]" Read it, they really believe it. I know people are having a hard time believing it because it’s anathema to them. [1]http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-03/17/c_137046261.htm http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-03/17/c_137046261.htm
dmos62 8y ago
Writing this from the West, it's hard to really understand how little Westerners care about their own rights, privacy, power, etc.
mamborambo 8y ago
Writing this from Hong Kong, the danger of being surveilled and having secret dossiere compiled without one's knowledge is always at the back of one's mind. I guess once you buy into using Wechat, Alipay, face id etc you will gradually forget how to survive outside the social credit system... But not me. I will continue to avoid the danger of complacency.
nicolas_t 8y ago
Having lived in China and now living in HK, I do know quite a few people in China who have decided to move out to other countries in the last 5 years... So I wouldn't say that people don't seem to care, well educated upper middle class people do care and find ways to move out. And, in HK, people are rather worried about the future and what will happen in the coming years.
wbxrs 8y ago
What happens in China is the result of not having been brainwashed since childhood about how bad authoritarianism is.
- FartyMcFarter 8y ago
  Curious why you chose to use the word brainwashed there.
PakG1 8y ago
You have a completely different worldview, a completely different education, a completely different history, and a completely different upbringing. For example, China never had the Magna Carta event that Western civilization had centuries ago, enabling a foundationally disparate view of government and society eons ago. This is not a criticism of you. It's an explanation why you can't understand. You need to transplant yourself into Chinese history to understand its people. That in turn will help you understand its domestic policy, economic policy, foreign policy, and more. Have gone through that process myself, lived in China for almost a decade now. I also didn't get it at the beginning. I'm an overall China bear, think its final destination is to be like Japan, but mainly due to secular trends beyond China's control. That doesn't stop me from figuring out things that I didn't know before. It's weirdly educational, as I didn't realize how intellectually arrogant, ignorant, and unwilling to consider other perspectives I was before. Perhaps still am. :)
- taway483 8y ago
  I think you do a great disservice to the Chinese people by assuming that they don't care or that they support it. The fact is that they're helpless. They have nothing to gain by expressing their true beliefs and everything to lose. I have many Chinese friends and they all either post government propaganda (that they don't believe in or support) on weixin or stay quiet. Why? Because it will be seen by their families, friends, classmates, professors, coworkers, bosses, etc. When they go travel, want to get a loan, a promotion, etc. then it will play a major role.
  - johnisgood 8y ago
    > Because it will be seen by their families, friends, classmates, professors, coworkers, bosses, etc. When they go travel, want to get a loan, a promotion, etc. then it will play a major role. That is very sad. :/
  - PakG1 8y ago
    What can I say? My Chinese friends who like the job their government is doing outweigh my Chinese friends who don't. Want to compare numbers and demographics? I've accumulated a fair number of Chinese friends from all walks of life in multiple cities in multiple regions across the country, both very rich and very poor. When you speak of me doing a great disservice, it speaks of a moral superiority in your mind. I used to think like that. Now I feel like I understand Chinese society better. I don't agree with much of it, it still doesn't match my values. But I do understand it better than before, even if I disagree with it.
pjc50 8y ago
In an authoritarian state, appearing to care about how authoritarian it is is bad for your health. I suspect the Uighurs care deeply about their treatment while also knowing that doing so visibly will get them "re-educated". (The treatment of this in Three Body Problem is fascinatingly oblique, for example)
loceng 8y ago
Who knows where the people who might question this in China are or who did in the past, you likely wouldn't find out via Chinese internet or want to talk about it though to protect yourself and your family; it makes a lot of sense and easy to understand IMHO if you add this lens to the equation. As long as you are in-line with X boundary, and not part of some bad actor(s) in power in China and their plans, you'll be fine - and if you aren't going to be fine, Godspeed if anyone will find out or if there will any be any justice.
wayneftw 8y ago
> The systems that so obsess western writers seem to have absolutely no effect on Chinese society... Then why pursue them? Why back leaders that do useless things? At some point along this line of though, you have to admit that your leaders aren't working in the interest of the great majority of citizens if what they're doing is not effective and if they don't step aside because of that... > The concerns are warranted, but the interest approaches zero in the culture here. Sounds like the same kind of apathy that westerners react to many serious topics with. I think we have a lot more in common than not. Your leaders sound just like ours and so does your average persons reaction to their policies.
- luckylion 8y ago
  > At some point along this line of though, you have to admit that your leaders aren't working in the interest of the great majority of citizens if what they're doing is not effective and if they don't step aside because of that... tbh seeing how there actually IS a middle class in china now, and it's in the hundreds of millions now and is growing, it's hard to argue that it's not "effective" for "the great majority". That's quite an accomplishment.

gammateam 8y ago

Writing this from the West, pointing this out is a great way to lose friends Different kind of firewall

smithmayowa 8y ago

Being an African I never understood why most westerners don't get the simple fact that to people who have been starving to death any policy or government that creates wealth for the majority of them is very welcome to them irrespective of their poor human rights disadvantages.

deugtniet 8y ago
China is hardly starving, though. I think we're (The world as a whole) blindly running into a state of boundless surveillance. In former East Germany, many people did not mind being watched by the StaSi initially. But it became so pervasive that voicing an opinion was dangerous, and there was much resentment. In my personal interactions with Chinese invididuals this resentment is also present, although they will not state it explicitly. For instance: Wondering why in a communist country it cost money to get healthcare, while in Europe it's nearly free.
- luckylion 8y ago
  > China is hardly starving, though. Well, a lot of them were rather close to that before the revolution. I mean, it's one thing to "not starve" and quite another to have your living standards raised substantially. People are happy to give up freedom for better living standards. Imagine if you could live two, three wealth/social classes higher than your current one, and all you need to give up is your right to criticize the government. That's pretty tempting to me, and I'm sure to a lot of other people as well. I think the best antidote is to steadily improve living conditions. Don't keep your lower class in intergenerational poverty and all that.
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  We shouldn’t call china a communist country. It’s something else and calling it communist doesn’t explain anything other than maybe the words they are using.
  - mc32 8y ago
    Importantly they claim themselves to be. But also the political system is still communist even if the economic system isn’t. During Leninism, the kulaks were incentivized. They needed a capitalist system; it wasn’t till Stalin willed it that confiscations happened and starvation happened by the millions. So communism historically has allowed capitalism, when expedient. What’s more officially it’s “Socialism with Chinese Characteristics for a New Era[1]" Read it, they really believe it. I know people are having a hard time believing it because it’s anathema to them. [1]http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-03/17/c_137046261.htm http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-03/17/c_137046261.htm

dmos62 8y ago

Writing this from the West, it's hard to really understand how little Westerners care about their own rights, privacy, power, etc.

mamborambo 8y ago

Writing this from Hong Kong, the danger of being surveilled and having secret dossiere compiled without one's knowledge is always at the back of one's mind. I guess once you buy into using Wechat, Alipay, face id etc you will gradually forget how to survive outside the social credit system... But not me. I will continue to avoid the danger of complacency.

nicolas_t 8y ago

Having lived in China and now living in HK, I do know quite a few people in China who have decided to move out to other countries in the last 5 years... So I wouldn't say that people don't seem to care, well educated upper middle class people do care and find ways to move out. And, in HK, people are rather worried about the future and what will happen in the coming years.

wbxrs 8y ago

What happens in China is the result of not having been brainwashed since childhood about how bad authoritarianism is.

FartyMcFarter 8y ago
Curious why you chose to use the word brainwashed there.

PakG1 8y ago

You have a completely different worldview, a completely different education, a completely different history, and a completely different upbringing. For example, China never had the Magna Carta event that Western civilization had centuries ago, enabling a foundationally disparate view of government and society eons ago. This is not a criticism of you. It's an explanation why you can't understand. You need to transplant yourself into Chinese history to understand its people. That in turn will help you understand its domestic policy, economic policy, foreign policy, and more. Have gone through that process myself, lived in China for almost a decade now. I also didn't get it at the beginning. I'm an overall China bear, think its final destination is to be like Japan, but mainly due to secular trends beyond China's control. That doesn't stop me from figuring out things that I didn't know before. It's weirdly educational, as I didn't realize how intellectually arrogant, ignorant, and unwilling to consider other perspectives I was before. Perhaps still am. :)

taway483 8y ago
I think you do a great disservice to the Chinese people by assuming that they don't care or that they support it. The fact is that they're helpless. They have nothing to gain by expressing their true beliefs and everything to lose. I have many Chinese friends and they all either post government propaganda (that they don't believe in or support) on weixin or stay quiet. Why? Because it will be seen by their families, friends, classmates, professors, coworkers, bosses, etc. When they go travel, want to get a loan, a promotion, etc. then it will play a major role.
- johnisgood 8y ago
  > Because it will be seen by their families, friends, classmates, professors, coworkers, bosses, etc. When they go travel, want to get a loan, a promotion, etc. then it will play a major role. That is very sad. :/
- PakG1 8y ago
  What can I say? My Chinese friends who like the job their government is doing outweigh my Chinese friends who don't. Want to compare numbers and demographics? I've accumulated a fair number of Chinese friends from all walks of life in multiple cities in multiple regions across the country, both very rich and very poor. When you speak of me doing a great disservice, it speaks of a moral superiority in your mind. I used to think like that. Now I feel like I understand Chinese society better. I don't agree with much of it, it still doesn't match my values. But I do understand it better than before, even if I disagree with it.

pjc50 8y ago

In an authoritarian state, appearing to care about how authoritarian it is is bad for your health. I suspect the Uighurs care deeply about their treatment while also knowing that doing so visibly will get them "re-educated". (The treatment of this in Three Body Problem is fascinatingly oblique, for example)

loceng 8y ago

Who knows where the people who might question this in China are or who did in the past, you likely wouldn't find out via Chinese internet or want to talk about it though to protect yourself and your family; it makes a lot of sense and easy to understand IMHO if you add this lens to the equation. As long as you are in-line with X boundary, and not part of some bad actor(s) in power in China and their plans, you'll be fine - and if you aren't going to be fine, Godspeed if anyone will find out or if there will any be any justice.

wayneftw 8y ago

> The systems that so obsess western writers seem to have absolutely no effect on Chinese society... Then why pursue them? Why back leaders that do useless things? At some point along this line of though, you have to admit that your leaders aren't working in the interest of the great majority of citizens if what they're doing is not effective and if they don't step aside because of that... > The concerns are warranted, but the interest approaches zero in the culture here. Sounds like the same kind of apathy that westerners react to many serious topics with. I think we have a lot more in common than not. Your leaders sound just like ours and so does your average persons reaction to their policies.

luckylion 8y ago
> At some point along this line of though, you have to admit that your leaders aren't working in the interest of the great majority of citizens if what they're doing is not effective and if they don't step aside because of that... tbh seeing how there actually IS a middle class in china now, and it's in the hundreds of millions now and is growing, it's hard to argue that it's not "effective" for "the great majority". That's quite an accomplishment.