6 ms·

Microsoft Workers Protest Army Contract with Tech 'Designed to Help People Kill'

35 points by vector_spaces 8y ago

PopeDotNinja 8y ago
At Rubyconf a few years ago, I saw a talk about writing software for controlling drones. As I remember it, the speaker configured the drone to "lock on" to his face & follow his movements. It was more unsettling than I expected.
- arthurcolle 8y ago
  Do you remember who the speaker was?
  - PopeDotNinja 8y ago
    Ruby On Robots Using Artoo by Ron Evans: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhXyNGX38mw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhXyNGX38mw Here's the drone video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zp7czxk52bI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zp7czxk52bI
mindcrash 8y ago
Countries all around the world, including the United States armed forces, are using Microsoft software in things "designed to help people kill" for years but now the US Army under Trump has a contract with Microsoft it now becomes a problem? We have a word for that in the dictionary, it is called hypocrisy.
- haggy 8y ago
  You're trying to tie Trump's administration to this? How? It just sounds like you're a trump supporter trying to cry "stop picking on us". Ethical concerns raised by developers are an increasingly common occurance that have nothing to do with the current presidential administration.
bunnycorn 8y ago
They are not slaves, they aren't bound to Microsoft and Microsoft is not bound to them. Step asside. I don't have any doubt that Microsoft won't have any problem in filling their positions with better professionals. Heck, if I were younger and didn't had yet a family, I would apply for a job at Microsoft and would be ok with moving to the United States, and helping the civilized world get rid of the barbarians would be an honor.
- vbuwivbiu 8y ago
  as a member of the civilized world, would you kill ("get rid of") a "barbarian" person with your bare hands ? Indirection doesn't change anything
  - bunnycorn 8y ago
    If Hitler was in front of you, would you kill him with your bare hands?
    - vbuwivbiu 8y ago
      Godwin's law in 2 steps! I need to quit HN
      - bunnycorn 8y ago
        Nice evasion tactic. Also, indirection changes everything. When a soldier fires a bullet, it's commanded by a chain of command that goes directly, in the case of the US, a leader elected by the people of the US. It's not a question of "firing with a rifle vs using your bare hands". Is "firing because you decided to kill that guy" vs "killing because the people of your nation decided that guy constitutes a threat".
- nitwit005 8y ago
  > helping the civilized world get rid of the barbarians would be an honor. Sounds like you basically want to help out with a genocide.
iceninenines 8y ago
Big picture: Microsoft is a major defense contractor, not just in one-of contracts, but US MIL and other militaries use Windows extensively to conduct C3 and other tasks that facilitate warfare. So, in my view, protesting a single contract shows either a lack of common sense of lack of awareness about how pervasively software is used. Granted, on its own, software and hardware is amoral, but knowingly selling to defense and other questionable industries whose use isn't as morally-defensible seems to be willful cognitive-dissonance.
Fej 8y ago
Whether you agree with this sentiment or not, people waking up to ethical questions in our field is unquestionably a good thing. It's important to ask these questions.
hevi_jos 8y ago
The problem with killing more efficiently is that after a point you don't know if you are improving your situation or worsening it. There is this tv series in Amazon about Einstein life and you could see him opposing using his knowledge to improve weapons, while Haber(creator of Bosh Haber process) did not. Haber was probably murdered while traveling by secret services in the same way the US killed engineers of Iran nuclear program openly. His wife and son committed suicide because of his work. As a technical person with decades of experience in science you can do enormous harm if you really want. All you really need is a powerful reason for that. If you see other countries developing so strong weapons they could invade your country with no cost for them, this is a powerful reason for you to collaborate. The US has focused so much in developing force that is seen more and more in the world as the bully while countries like China build bridges, ports or roads.
- thoughtstheseus 8y ago
  Haber–Bosch process greatly supported the population explosion post war. Billions of people have better access to food because of his work.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- lykr0n 8y ago
  You think China isn't using it's tech industry to further it's own defense and surveillance projects? That what you seem to imply?
  - avmich 8y ago
    No, the implication is that US uses its prowess disproportionally to advance its military abilities.
RickJWagner 8y ago
It's a good place to be when workers can pick and choose which jobs to pick up. It's not always this way. We should be glad we're here now.
- ReptileMan 8y ago
  I wouldn't want to be in their place if a global recession with layoffs comes. And it is long oberdue by historical standards.
tuesdayrain 8y ago
I can't decide if it's more or less ethical to turn down these type of jobs. Even if you are anti-war, by declining such a job you open up space for the next person in line who may not be as talented of a programmer. The weapons will exist either way, but now they'll have an increased chance of having severe bugs because all the best programmers chose less morally ambiguous jobs. Maybe working for a military contractor is how you prevent the world from accidentally being destroyed. Or that's how you help it intentionally get destroyed, I don't know.
- SmirkingRevenge 8y ago
  I almost wonder if these movements are driven in part, or at least encouraged by, foreign state actors within these companies, who have interests in hampering US military dominance.
  - astrowilliam 8y ago
    Not everything is a conspiracy.
    - SmirkingRevenge 8y ago
      Of course it isn't. I didn't claim it was.
  - educationdata 8y ago
    Not sure about this one, but in the Vietnam era, many anti-war activists were Soviet spies, or influenced by Soviet spies, or communists who have no direct connection to the Soviets but want to see communism takes over the world.
- baddox 8y ago
  I don’t know. I remember reading a thought experiment years ago which I believe was presented by and to libertarians. If you were a German who found yourself conscripted into the Nazi military during World War 2 and assigned to an extermination camp, should you aspire to kill as few people as possible without getting fired? The supposed reasoning being that you are “saving” lives, since if you were fired and replaced, your replacement would likely kill even more people. I suppose it’s supposed to be a challenge to consequentialism or the claim that the ends justify the means. Personally I think it’s a bit silly, and you just shouldn’t murder people.

35 points by vector_spaces 8y ago

At Rubyconf a few years ago, I saw a talk about writing software for controlling drones. As I remember it, the speaker configured the drone to "lock on" to his face & follow his movements. It was more unsettling than I expected.

arthurcolle 8y ago
Do you remember who the speaker was?
- PopeDotNinja 8y ago
  Ruby On Robots Using Artoo by Ron Evans: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhXyNGX38mw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhXyNGX38mw Here's the drone video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zp7czxk52bI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zp7czxk52bI

mindcrash 8y ago

Countries all around the world, including the United States armed forces, are using Microsoft software in things "designed to help people kill" for years but now the US Army under Trump has a contract with Microsoft it now becomes a problem? We have a word for that in the dictionary, it is called hypocrisy.

haggy 8y ago
You're trying to tie Trump's administration to this? How? It just sounds like you're a trump supporter trying to cry "stop picking on us". Ethical concerns raised by developers are an increasingly common occurance that have nothing to do with the current presidential administration.

bunnycorn 8y ago

They are not slaves, they aren't bound to Microsoft and Microsoft is not bound to them. Step asside. I don't have any doubt that Microsoft won't have any problem in filling their positions with better professionals. Heck, if I were younger and didn't had yet a family, I would apply for a job at Microsoft and would be ok with moving to the United States, and helping the civilized world get rid of the barbarians would be an honor.

vbuwivbiu 8y ago
as a member of the civilized world, would you kill ("get rid of") a "barbarian" person with your bare hands ? Indirection doesn't change anything
- bunnycorn 8y ago
  If Hitler was in front of you, would you kill him with your bare hands?
  - vbuwivbiu 8y ago
    Godwin's law in 2 steps! I need to quit HN
    - bunnycorn 8y ago
      Nice evasion tactic. Also, indirection changes everything. When a soldier fires a bullet, it's commanded by a chain of command that goes directly, in the case of the US, a leader elected by the people of the US. It's not a question of "firing with a rifle vs using your bare hands". Is "firing because you decided to kill that guy" vs "killing because the people of your nation decided that guy constitutes a threat".
nitwit005 8y ago
> helping the civilized world get rid of the barbarians would be an honor. Sounds like you basically want to help out with a genocide.

iceninenines 8y ago

Big picture: Microsoft is a major defense contractor, not just in one-of contracts, but US MIL and other militaries use Windows extensively to conduct C3 and other tasks that facilitate warfare. So, in my view, protesting a single contract shows either a lack of common sense of lack of awareness about how pervasively software is used. Granted, on its own, software and hardware is amoral, but knowingly selling to defense and other questionable industries whose use isn't as morally-defensible seems to be willful cognitive-dissonance.

Fej 8y ago

Whether you agree with this sentiment or not, people waking up to ethical questions in our field is unquestionably a good thing. It's important to ask these questions.

hevi_jos 8y ago

The problem with killing more efficiently is that after a point you don't know if you are improving your situation or worsening it. There is this tv series in Amazon about Einstein life and you could see him opposing using his knowledge to improve weapons, while Haber(creator of Bosh Haber process) did not. Haber was probably murdered while traveling by secret services in the same way the US killed engineers of Iran nuclear program openly. His wife and son committed suicide because of his work. As a technical person with decades of experience in science you can do enormous harm if you really want. All you really need is a powerful reason for that. If you see other countries developing so strong weapons they could invade your country with no cost for them, this is a powerful reason for you to collaborate. The US has focused so much in developing force that is seen more and more in the world as the bully while countries like China build bridges, ports or roads.

thoughtstheseus 8y ago
Haber–Bosch process greatly supported the population explosion post war. Billions of people have better access to food because of his work.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
lykr0n 8y ago
You think China isn't using it's tech industry to further it's own defense and surveillance projects? That what you seem to imply?
- avmich 8y ago
  No, the implication is that US uses its prowess disproportionally to advance its military abilities.

RickJWagner 8y ago

It's a good place to be when workers can pick and choose which jobs to pick up. It's not always this way. We should be glad we're here now.

ReptileMan 8y ago
I wouldn't want to be in their place if a global recession with layoffs comes. And it is long oberdue by historical standards.

tuesdayrain 8y ago

I can't decide if it's more or less ethical to turn down these type of jobs. Even if you are anti-war, by declining such a job you open up space for the next person in line who may not be as talented of a programmer. The weapons will exist either way, but now they'll have an increased chance of having severe bugs because all the best programmers chose less morally ambiguous jobs. Maybe working for a military contractor is how you prevent the world from accidentally being destroyed. Or that's how you help it intentionally get destroyed, I don't know.

SmirkingRevenge 8y ago
I almost wonder if these movements are driven in part, or at least encouraged by, foreign state actors within these companies, who have interests in hampering US military dominance.
- astrowilliam 8y ago
  Not everything is a conspiracy.
  - SmirkingRevenge 8y ago
    Of course it isn't. I didn't claim it was.
- educationdata 8y ago
  Not sure about this one, but in the Vietnam era, many anti-war activists were Soviet spies, or influenced by Soviet spies, or communists who have no direct connection to the Soviets but want to see communism takes over the world.
baddox 8y ago
I don’t know. I remember reading a thought experiment years ago which I believe was presented by and to libertarians. If you were a German who found yourself conscripted into the Nazi military during World War 2 and assigned to an extermination camp, should you aspire to kill as few people as possible without getting fired? The supposed reasoning being that you are “saving” lives, since if you were fired and replaced, your replacement would likely kill even more people. I suppose it’s supposed to be a challenge to consequentialism or the claim that the ends justify the means. Personally I think it’s a bit silly, and you just shouldn’t murder people.