6 ms·

Where do fb recruit engineering talent ? are we (engineers) really that indifferent to what organizations we support do ?

basementcat 8y ago
It depends. If you have a variety of employment options, it is easy to follow you “conscience”. When you have fewer options and more personal responsibilities (private school tuition, piano lessons, etc), you start to lose the luxury of working for less pay.
brador 8y ago
I wonder if they psychologically test for and target these traits during recruitment.
- renholder 8y ago
  This would seem to make the most sense, as it's the same line of thinking around why only 1 out of thousands at the NSA would be a whisteblower (see: Snowden); despite the shady shit that they were (and probably still are) undertaking. Also, non-disclosure agreements really fuck people in the overall scheme of things. If you worked for Facebook and came out tomorrow showing some really shady shit that they were doing, it's conceivable that no other company would ever want to hire you. (I think the term is "black-balled" but not sure if it's still in use, today?) (Whistleblower laws only protect government workers and do not affect the commercial industry. Even then, the whistleblower laws only go so far...) So, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.
  - JohnFen 8y ago
    > you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. If having integrity and an interest in the public good aren't strong enough arguments to avoid working for these companies, then perhaps this one is.
- pdkl95 8y ago
  After their internal memos about valuing "connecting people" over anything else (like safety) leaked[1], some of the comments by Facebook employees were almost cult-like[2]: > Leakers, please resign instead of sabotaging the company > How fucking terrible that some irresponsible jerk decided he or she had some god complex that jeopardizes our inner culture and something that makes Facebook great? In particular, this included comments about wanting a loyalty test "screen" in their hiring process: > Although we all subconsciously look for signal on integrity in interviews, should we consider whether this needs to be formalized in the interview process? > This is so disappointing, wonder if there is a way to hire for integrity. We are probably focusing on the intelligence part and getting smart people here who lack a moral compass and loyalty. [1] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/facebook-memo-the-ugly-andrew-boz-bosworth-mark-zuckerberg-response-today-2018-03-29/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/facebook-memo-the-ugly-andrew-b... [2] https://www.theverge.com/2018/3/30/17179100/facebook-memo-leaks-boz-andrew-bosworth https://www.theverge.com/2018/3/30/17179100/facebook-memo-le...
  - mehrdadn 8y ago
    That last one really drives me nuts. Isn't having a moral compass almost the opposite of loyalty (at least in cases where both are involved)? Maybe not 100% opposites, but enough that it would seem they don't belong together like that...
  - stordoff 8y ago
    It's interesting that they use the word "integrity", when I would consider integrity standing up against your employer (if they are doing something bad). They seem to be conflating "integrity" and "loyalty".
joeblau 8y ago
Their recruiters reach out to me about 4 times a year. I will say that some of the challenges and scale of the problems Facebook is solving really can't be found at other companies. You're doing data analytics, product design, infrastructure engineering, dev ops, security and software engineering at a scale that's pretty much never been done before. Also, companies like Facebook, Twitter, and Google generally define frameworks that other companies use. Think about products like Angular (Google), Bootstrap (Twitter), ReactNative/ReactJS (Facebook) — If you want to work on a project of that scale, there aren't that many options for companies to work for. I always tell my buddy who works at Turner — Your company is never going to be better than Facebook when all of the tools you use are built by Facebook. I also hear that compensation and benefits are really good, plus their stock value is going up faster than other companies in the market. If you live in the Bay Area, you need that equity boost to move up the socioeconomic ladder. I probably won't ever work at Facebook (I have all of their services blocked in my host file and I've deleted my account and they aren't working on anything interesting to me) but I'm just trying play devils advocate and paint a picture of why someone would choose to work there.
- blaisio 8y ago
  I agree with everything except the projects. It is true that Google Amazon and Facebook have projects that are exclusive. But there are lots of other interesting and widely used projects out there. Redis, PostgreSQL, MariaDB, Rust, Firefox, Python, VueJS, Linux, Apache Hive, Hadoop, etc. If you care about projects that involve the largest number of servers, you need to work for one of those companies. But if you care about your code being used by a huge number of people, there are lots of other interesting things out there.
  - rak00n 8y ago
    Also you may not end up in one of those "cool" projects either even if you land on a FANG job.
- joeseeder 8y ago
  Interesting bit is that, I wanted to counter the Stock price argument but after checking current trend it’s back to former values from last year. Well thought out arguments. cheers!
high_derivative 8y ago
This is just an anecdote but being a PhD student at a well-known university in CS I often hear from undergrads (via teaching) what they think about companies/where they go for internships. Observationally, ethics does not even enter the equation. Especially career-driven students from backgrounds where name-brand prestige is important just want such a name-brand on their CV. Not that faculty are any better given how many academics effectively sign away their lab to FB through 'collaborations'. All they see is resources to use, name-brand recognition, a big personal pay-check, and publicity for their work. What I find most mystifying is that this is a literal non-topic. At best someone may forward a blogpost about a security leak and make a snarky comment, but I have never witnessed any political discussion.
- mehrdadn 8y ago
  I feel like it's difficult to bring it up. What are you going to do... tell your friends/students their next job is at an unethical company? Also, people generally believe it's quite possible to work on good things in a company that also does bad things. (And many of them indeed will.) So it's not the most compelling argument that you shouldn't work with X/Y/Z because they did bad thing W.
  - JohnFen 8y ago
    > What are you going to do... tell your friends/students their next job is at an unethical company? Yes.
  - DyslexicAtheist 8y ago
    > What are you going to do... tell your friends/students mentors, professors and friends can have a lot of influence which (imo) could be a moral and ethical obligation one may like to exercise? If you were receiving advise or learning as a junior and looking for direction from a mentor (or any person you feel you can learn from and also trust), wouldn't you appreciate hearing their personal opinion on a subject, and how they arrived at their believes? > Also, people generally believe it's quite possible to work on good things in a company that also does bad things. (And many of them indeed will.) So it's not the most compelling argument that you shouldn't work with X/Y/Z because they did bad thing W. it's difficult if not impossible to convince somebody that a company they just passed their 1st interview with, to refuse because of ethics. Especially if they never had a job they might say I'll do it anyway and see for myself, I can still bail if it's that bad. But employees already working there have more power by changing things from within. I think this is why point above is valid because everyone has mentors so speaking up (without judgement) is key. Only by changing the inside it's possible to have a dialogue about impact on environment/society and only by talking about it will we eventually be able to abolish the practice of labeling any such discussion as anti-profit or social-justice seeking. It does affect the long-term image and how the company/brand will be perceived in the long run.
throw2016 8y ago
Given the widespread apologism and hand waving around Google, Facebook and others here this is hardly surprising. Decision makers shoulder the blame but what we are seeing from these revelations is rank and file tech folks are 'eager' and willing enablers. Ethics is reduced to meaningless posturing if whenever it comes to action people have a litany of excuses on hand. In the case of surveillance whether its government or private its individuals empowering themselves at the cost of others not particularly burdened by the wider social ramifications. It's a bit tragic that its only when without power that people talk of ethics and even with little power it seems self interest always rules. And discussions become pointless as it becomes impossible to tell how many will do differently.
sametmax 8y ago
I refused a job interview with them for ethical reasons, but I'm not blamming people accepting. Morality is an abitrary line. My phone is probably made by slaves, my clothes by children and my bank account probably invest in arms companies. It's good if one can take the opportunity to take a stand. But let's not pretend we are parangon because we do.
aboutruby 8y ago
They offer the top salaries, and they have 2B+ users.
chooseaname 8y ago
Hire young. Their ethics haven't evolved yet. [0] [0] Not a condemnation of the young, but they still don't realize what they don't realize at that point.

basementcat 8y ago

It depends. If you have a variety of employment options, it is easy to follow you “conscience”. When you have fewer options and more personal responsibilities (private school tuition, piano lessons, etc), you start to lose the luxury of working for less pay.

brador 8y ago

I wonder if they psychologically test for and target these traits during recruitment.

renholder 8y ago
This would seem to make the most sense, as it's the same line of thinking around why only 1 out of thousands at the NSA would be a whisteblower (see: Snowden); despite the shady shit that they were (and probably still are) undertaking. Also, non-disclosure agreements really fuck people in the overall scheme of things. If you worked for Facebook and came out tomorrow showing some really shady shit that they were doing, it's conceivable that no other company would ever want to hire you. (I think the term is "black-balled" but not sure if it's still in use, today?) (Whistleblower laws only protect government workers and do not affect the commercial industry. Even then, the whistleblower laws only go so far...) So, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.
- JohnFen 8y ago
  > you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. If having integrity and an interest in the public good aren't strong enough arguments to avoid working for these companies, then perhaps this one is.
pdkl95 8y ago
After their internal memos about valuing "connecting people" over anything else (like safety) leaked[1], some of the comments by Facebook employees were almost cult-like[2]: > Leakers, please resign instead of sabotaging the company > How fucking terrible that some irresponsible jerk decided he or she had some god complex that jeopardizes our inner culture and something that makes Facebook great? In particular, this included comments about wanting a loyalty test "screen" in their hiring process: > Although we all subconsciously look for signal on integrity in interviews, should we consider whether this needs to be formalized in the interview process? > This is so disappointing, wonder if there is a way to hire for integrity. We are probably focusing on the intelligence part and getting smart people here who lack a moral compass and loyalty. [1] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/facebook-memo-the-ugly-andrew-boz-bosworth-mark-zuckerberg-response-today-2018-03-29/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/facebook-memo-the-ugly-andrew-b... [2] https://www.theverge.com/2018/3/30/17179100/facebook-memo-leaks-boz-andrew-bosworth https://www.theverge.com/2018/3/30/17179100/facebook-memo-le...
- mehrdadn 8y ago
  That last one really drives me nuts. Isn't having a moral compass almost the opposite of loyalty (at least in cases where both are involved)? Maybe not 100% opposites, but enough that it would seem they don't belong together like that...
- stordoff 8y ago
  It's interesting that they use the word "integrity", when I would consider integrity standing up against your employer (if they are doing something bad). They seem to be conflating "integrity" and "loyalty".

joeblau 8y ago

Their recruiters reach out to me about 4 times a year. I will say that some of the challenges and scale of the problems Facebook is solving really can't be found at other companies. You're doing data analytics, product design, infrastructure engineering, dev ops, security and software engineering at a scale that's pretty much never been done before. Also, companies like Facebook, Twitter, and Google generally define frameworks that other companies use. Think about products like Angular (Google), Bootstrap (Twitter), ReactNative/ReactJS (Facebook) — If you want to work on a project of that scale, there aren't that many options for companies to work for. I always tell my buddy who works at Turner — Your company is never going to be better than Facebook when all of the tools you use are built by Facebook. I also hear that compensation and benefits are really good, plus their stock value is going up faster than other companies in the market. If you live in the Bay Area, you need that equity boost to move up the socioeconomic ladder. I probably won't ever work at Facebook (I have all of their services blocked in my host file and I've deleted my account and they aren't working on anything interesting to me) but I'm just trying play devils advocate and paint a picture of why someone would choose to work there.

blaisio 8y ago
I agree with everything except the projects. It is true that Google Amazon and Facebook have projects that are exclusive. But there are lots of other interesting and widely used projects out there. Redis, PostgreSQL, MariaDB, Rust, Firefox, Python, VueJS, Linux, Apache Hive, Hadoop, etc. If you care about projects that involve the largest number of servers, you need to work for one of those companies. But if you care about your code being used by a huge number of people, there are lots of other interesting things out there.
- rak00n 8y ago
  Also you may not end up in one of those "cool" projects either even if you land on a FANG job.
joeseeder 8y ago
Interesting bit is that, I wanted to counter the Stock price argument but after checking current trend it’s back to former values from last year. Well thought out arguments. cheers!

high_derivative 8y ago

This is just an anecdote but being a PhD student at a well-known university in CS I often hear from undergrads (via teaching) what they think about companies/where they go for internships. Observationally, ethics does not even enter the equation. Especially career-driven students from backgrounds where name-brand prestige is important just want such a name-brand on their CV. Not that faculty are any better given how many academics effectively sign away their lab to FB through 'collaborations'. All they see is resources to use, name-brand recognition, a big personal pay-check, and publicity for their work. What I find most mystifying is that this is a literal non-topic. At best someone may forward a blogpost about a security leak and make a snarky comment, but I have never witnessed any political discussion.

mehrdadn 8y ago
I feel like it's difficult to bring it up. What are you going to do... tell your friends/students their next job is at an unethical company? Also, people generally believe it's quite possible to work on good things in a company that also does bad things. (And many of them indeed will.) So it's not the most compelling argument that you shouldn't work with X/Y/Z because they did bad thing W.
- JohnFen 8y ago
  > What are you going to do... tell your friends/students their next job is at an unethical company? Yes.
- DyslexicAtheist 8y ago
  > What are you going to do... tell your friends/students mentors, professors and friends can have a lot of influence which (imo) could be a moral and ethical obligation one may like to exercise? If you were receiving advise or learning as a junior and looking for direction from a mentor (or any person you feel you can learn from and also trust), wouldn't you appreciate hearing their personal opinion on a subject, and how they arrived at their believes? > Also, people generally believe it's quite possible to work on good things in a company that also does bad things. (And many of them indeed will.) So it's not the most compelling argument that you shouldn't work with X/Y/Z because they did bad thing W. it's difficult if not impossible to convince somebody that a company they just passed their 1st interview with, to refuse because of ethics. Especially if they never had a job they might say I'll do it anyway and see for myself, I can still bail if it's that bad. But employees already working there have more power by changing things from within. I think this is why point above is valid because everyone has mentors so speaking up (without judgement) is key. Only by changing the inside it's possible to have a dialogue about impact on environment/society and only by talking about it will we eventually be able to abolish the practice of labeling any such discussion as anti-profit or social-justice seeking. It does affect the long-term image and how the company/brand will be perceived in the long run.

throw2016 8y ago

Given the widespread apologism and hand waving around Google, Facebook and others here this is hardly surprising. Decision makers shoulder the blame but what we are seeing from these revelations is rank and file tech folks are 'eager' and willing enablers. Ethics is reduced to meaningless posturing if whenever it comes to action people have a litany of excuses on hand. In the case of surveillance whether its government or private its individuals empowering themselves at the cost of others not particularly burdened by the wider social ramifications. It's a bit tragic that its only when without power that people talk of ethics and even with little power it seems self interest always rules. And discussions become pointless as it becomes impossible to tell how many will do differently.

sametmax 8y ago

I refused a job interview with them for ethical reasons, but I'm not blamming people accepting. Morality is an abitrary line. My phone is probably made by slaves, my clothes by children and my bank account probably invest in arms companies. It's good if one can take the opportunity to take a stand. But let's not pretend we are parangon because we do.

aboutruby 8y ago

They offer the top salaries, and they have 2B+ users.

chooseaname 8y ago

Hire young. Their ethics haven't evolved yet. [0] [0] Not a condemnation of the young, but they still don't realize what they don't realize at that point.