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How many immune system compromised individuals die of vaccine-preventable diseases in the United States each year? Like I said, if it's thousands I might recon

by rlt 8y ago

How many immune system compromised individuals die of vaccine-preventable diseases in the United States each year? Like I said, if it's thousands I might reconsider my stance. If not, sorry, but it doesn't justify the government forcing people to do things to their body.

fzeroracer 8y ago
Okay, real question: Are you being serious here? There's a huge logical problem with your argument. The reason why so few immune-compromised individuals die of vaccine-preventable diseases is because they're protected by herd immunity due to people being vaccinated. When the vaccination rate goes down, you see more people die from vaccine preventable diseases. Because that's what vaccines do: they prevent people from dying from vaccine-preventable diseases. Which, often, is children.
- kazinator 8y ago
  > When the vaccination rate goes down, you see more people die from vaccine preventable diseases. To see this all we have to do is simply visualize history backwards, re-visiting the time before vaccines and medicine in general, and how people just horribly died in large numbers of diseases we don't even think of as deadly any more. But what are the odds vaccine deniers would believe historic record, right? The plague pandemics? Never happened; it's just a fabrication to promote vaccination.
- rlt 8y ago
  There’s no problem with my argument. Enough people are voluntarily getting vaccines that it doesn’t justify government forcing people to, which I am philosophically opposed to unless absolutely necessary. I’ve repeatedly said I’d be willing to reconsider if that changes.
  - idDriven 8y ago
    A beloved family member you care about very much is sick. They are in the hospital receiving treatment but their body and immune system are already taxed to the limit fighting to survive. A new Nurse arrives on shift, upon initial meeting the Nurse tells you that "I don't believe in vaccination and have never been vaccinated for contagious disease." Do you want that Nurse to take care of your sick family member? Or do you tell the supervisor you want a different nurse?
    - rlt 8y ago
      Nice straw man and appeal to emotions. Health care providers are already required to be vaccinated (at least in my state). That’s a perfectly reasonable condition of employment for that profession.
      - idDriven 8y ago
        I don't consider this a fallacy, if you follow the whole libertarian idea of a person should be able to claim philosophical exemptions for their children shouldn't that immutable right to exemption also apply to everyone?
kazinator 8y ago
In the years 1331-1351, half the population of China, and one third of that of Europe, died in the Black Death pandemic. That is preventable by a vaccine. > forcing people to do things to their body. Ah, but, firstly, your child's body isn't your body; that's a separate human being who has a right not to have idiot parents interfere with their survival. Secondly, one person's immunization status affects others around them. It's not just a personal choice. Choosing not to be immunized and being around people is somewhat like smoking.
- henrikschroder 8y ago
  Actually, the Black Death was caused by a bacteria, not a virus. It could have been cured with antibiotics, not vaccines.
  - kazinator 8y ago
    I checked my facts before posting: vaccination does exist for Yersinia pestis. Though that particular pathogen is not commonly targeted by vaccination, it is not true that vaccines are just for viruses, whereas we just let people contract bacterial diseases and then fight them with antibiotics. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine#Effectiveness https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine#Effectiveness "Vaccines also help prevent the development of antibiotic resistance. For example, by greatly reducing the incidence of pneumonia caused by Streptococcus pneumoniae, vaccine programs have greatly reduced the prevalence of infections resistant to penicillin or other first-line antibiotics." Sourced from Nature Journal: https://web.archive.org/web/20170722121157/http://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-017-01711-6 https://web.archive.org/web/20170722121157/http://www.nature...
    - henrikschroder 8y ago
      > I checked my facts before posting You're right, and I've never thought about the pneumonia vaccine being against bacteria as well, even though I've taken it myself.
- YouAreGreat 8y ago

by rlt 8y ago

fzeroracer 8y ago

Okay, real question: Are you being serious here? There's a huge logical problem with your argument. The reason why so few immune-compromised individuals die of vaccine-preventable diseases is because they're protected by herd immunity due to people being vaccinated. When the vaccination rate goes down, you see more people die from vaccine preventable diseases. Because that's what vaccines do: they prevent people from dying from vaccine-preventable diseases. Which, often, is children.

kazinator 8y ago
> When the vaccination rate goes down, you see more people die from vaccine preventable diseases. To see this all we have to do is simply visualize history backwards, re-visiting the time before vaccines and medicine in general, and how people just horribly died in large numbers of diseases we don't even think of as deadly any more. But what are the odds vaccine deniers would believe historic record, right? The plague pandemics? Never happened; it's just a fabrication to promote vaccination.
rlt 8y ago
There’s no problem with my argument. Enough people are voluntarily getting vaccines that it doesn’t justify government forcing people to, which I am philosophically opposed to unless absolutely necessary. I’ve repeatedly said I’d be willing to reconsider if that changes.
- idDriven 8y ago
  A beloved family member you care about very much is sick. They are in the hospital receiving treatment but their body and immune system are already taxed to the limit fighting to survive. A new Nurse arrives on shift, upon initial meeting the Nurse tells you that "I don't believe in vaccination and have never been vaccinated for contagious disease." Do you want that Nurse to take care of your sick family member? Or do you tell the supervisor you want a different nurse?
  - rlt 8y ago
    Nice straw man and appeal to emotions. Health care providers are already required to be vaccinated (at least in my state). That’s a perfectly reasonable condition of employment for that profession.
    - idDriven 8y ago
      I don't consider this a fallacy, if you follow the whole libertarian idea of a person should be able to claim philosophical exemptions for their children shouldn't that immutable right to exemption also apply to everyone?

kazinator 8y ago

In the years 1331-1351, half the population of China, and one third of that of Europe, died in the Black Death pandemic. That is preventable by a vaccine. > forcing people to do things to their body. Ah, but, firstly, your child's body isn't your body; that's a separate human being who has a right not to have idiot parents interfere with their survival. Secondly, one person's immunization status affects others around them. It's not just a personal choice. Choosing not to be immunized and being around people is somewhat like smoking.

henrikschroder 8y ago
Actually, the Black Death was caused by a bacteria, not a virus. It could have been cured with antibiotics, not vaccines.
- kazinator 8y ago
  I checked my facts before posting: vaccination does exist for Yersinia pestis. Though that particular pathogen is not commonly targeted by vaccination, it is not true that vaccines are just for viruses, whereas we just let people contract bacterial diseases and then fight them with antibiotics. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine#Effectiveness https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine#Effectiveness "Vaccines also help prevent the development of antibiotic resistance. For example, by greatly reducing the incidence of pneumonia caused by Streptococcus pneumoniae, vaccine programs have greatly reduced the prevalence of infections resistant to penicillin or other first-line antibiotics." Sourced from Nature Journal: https://web.archive.org/web/20170722121157/http://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-017-01711-6 https://web.archive.org/web/20170722121157/http://www.nature...
  - henrikschroder 8y ago
    > I checked my facts before posting You're right, and I've never thought about the pneumonia vaccine being against bacteria as well, even though I've taken it myself.
YouAreGreat 8y ago