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The 4th amendment having any legislative teeth is honestly a joke at this point. The NSA spying programs show the US government has very little interest in upho

by cyphar 8y ago

The 4th amendment having any legislative teeth is honestly a joke at this point. The NSA spying programs show the US government has very little interest in upholding the 4th amendment. Now, does this mean no company will take the government to court to protect their user data? Maybe not, but the list of companies that I can think of which will do that is vanishingly small. And let's not forget that the AT&T NSA spying case was dismissed by the appeals court, and was not accepted by review in the supreme court. Do you think the outcome would be any different next time?

dgzl 8y ago
This is where I express my concern that the American government is operating outside of the Constitution and are guilty of violating our rights. Many constitutionists consider these three-letter agencies to be entirely unconstitutional.
- cyphar 8y ago
  Sure, and I'm in favour of constitutional bills of rights (in Australia we have no strong protections of that kind, it's mostly ad-hoc and common law with the only really significant protection being the "on just terms" concept of compulsory acquisition). The problem is that if there is no way to effectively "petition a redress of grievances" (to borrow a phrase) about some constitutional violations, what is the point of that clause of the constitution? If you have legal protections of your rights, you must also have a court system that is willing to actually hold the government to account over violations of your rights -- and my impression of the US (as an outsider) is that this is not the case for 4th amendment violations.
  - dgzl 8y ago
    Yeah, and I really wish I had a better solution than just excavating the cancerous parts of the government, but Americans aren't very rehearsed on the Constitution or their rights, and finding people who openly advocate for them in their entirety is rare. I think we need need term limits in Congress, so the same stale minds can't dominate forever. Also I think states should start flexing their 10th amendment rights to show the feds that they care about their rights (state legalization of drugs, prostitution for example). In general our court system is fairly good at upholding constitutional rights. It's not uncommon for a trial to be thrown out because some evidence was collected without a warrant, for example. However you're right that certain events question the viability of upholding our rights against a tyrannically government. That of course is why the 2nd amendment exists.

by cyphar 8y ago

dgzl 8y ago

This is where I express my concern that the American government is operating outside of the Constitution and are guilty of violating our rights. Many constitutionists consider these three-letter agencies to be entirely unconstitutional.

cyphar 8y ago
Sure, and I'm in favour of constitutional bills of rights (in Australia we have no strong protections of that kind, it's mostly ad-hoc and common law with the only really significant protection being the "on just terms" concept of compulsory acquisition). The problem is that if there is no way to effectively "petition a redress of grievances" (to borrow a phrase) about some constitutional violations, what is the point of that clause of the constitution? If you have legal protections of your rights, you must also have a court system that is willing to actually hold the government to account over violations of your rights -- and my impression of the US (as an outsider) is that this is not the case for 4th amendment violations.
- dgzl 8y ago
  Yeah, and I really wish I had a better solution than just excavating the cancerous parts of the government, but Americans aren't very rehearsed on the Constitution or their rights, and finding people who openly advocate for them in their entirety is rare. I think we need need term limits in Congress, so the same stale minds can't dominate forever. Also I think states should start flexing their 10th amendment rights to show the feds that they care about their rights (state legalization of drugs, prostitution for example). In general our court system is fairly good at upholding constitutional rights. It's not uncommon for a trial to be thrown out because some evidence was collected without a warrant, for example. However you're right that certain events question the viability of upholding our rights against a tyrannically government. That of course is why the 2nd amendment exists.