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And this is a fantastic argument why 'The West' owes reparations to the descendants of the West African Slave trade. The genocide in Rwanda, the WW2 Jewish Hol

And this is a fantastic argument why 'The West' owes reparations to the descendants of the West African Slave trade. The genocide in Rwanda, the WW2 Jewish Holocaust (to name but two recent atrocities); these were over within a handful of years. Every single second of it was worse-then-horrible and equally shows the worst of humanity. They nonetheless ended. The West African Slave trade lasted for HUNDREDS of years. "Chattle Slavery" only ended in name and one needs only look at the Prison system in the United States to see the still evident policies and procedures that continue to this very day to continually harm the descendants of slavery. This is an ongoing crisis, that must be resolved. What tortured damage lingers in the DNA of these descendants? We have proof that Rwandans, and Jews have suffered damage and harm; is it too hard to imagine that we owe a debt and an obligation to healing these injuries? And for healing to begin, the damage must stop.

jchrisa 8y ago
Here is a good article that runs the numbers on what reparations could look like: https://qz.com/1012692/this-is-what-reparations-could-actually-look-like-in-america/ https://qz.com/1012692/this-is-what-reparations-could-actual...
- steve76 8y ago
  The real evil of fascism is not racism as evil as that is. It's the nihilism and amorality, the weaponizing of the absurd and turning everything grotesque for selfish petty celebrity and sadism. We really are fools to think hundreds of millions of fascist and marxists went away overnight. America taught the world one lesson, and we taught it well. Leave Americans alone. The world's evil is still there, as it always has been, and seeps into the marginalized parts onto truly poor victims who are degraded and brought to their destruction. Think of that next time you do drugs or watch porn or gamble. People who despise all human rights prey on others there. To those, know we are created in self-evidence. You will never win over us. We've touched the Sun. We've left our star. We soon will cure cancer and all diseases of the human mind. We bring matter out of nothing and scatter mass as if it was nothing. It's not our part to defeat you. It's ours to completely embarrass you and your pathetic schemes.
merpnderp 8y ago
Sure, just as long as everyone who's descended from a culture that held slaves pays reparations too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery
- maxerickson 8y ago
  The ultimate form of leadership, refusing to do the right thing until everyone else substantively agrees to also do the right thing.
phkahler 8y ago
We also need to pay attention to this line from the article: >> ..but how they face adversity is also a factor, speculates Dr. Shrira. “After all, the transmission of trauma is also the way the story is told. I dont mean to diminish past events, or the lasting effects. But at the same time, we need to find ways to remember the lessons of history without reinforcing those effects.
jlawson 8y ago
You probably don't want to bring up Jews while making this argument, given that their outstandingly high status and wealth in society kind of demonstrates that group social outcomes are more driven by internal characteristics than external circumstances. They are the people who suffered the worst oppression, literally losing half their people to murder very recently, and who are still the most targeted victims of hate crime. Yet somehow they also ended up comprising >17% of global billionares despite being 0.2% of global population, are massively overrepresented at top schools, in leadership positions at all levels of society, government, and law. It's hard to argue that outcomes are driven by external circumstances (as opposed to internal characteristics of people) given facts like that. If trauma had strict generational effects, Jews would be in ghettoes now and Israel would look like Burundi. Articles like the OP need to make some explanation for the counterexamples like the Jews. Otherwise they're just hammering on their own confirmation bias - seeking examples to confirm the theory, instead of grappling with examples that seem to refute it.
- deogeo 8y ago
  > Yet somehow they also ended up comprising >17% of global billionares despite being 0.2% of global population, are massively overrepresented at top schools, in leadership positions at all levels of society, government, and law. Do you have any sources on this? Because it sounds like typical "Jews control the world" antisemitism.
  - vibrato 8y ago
    Let me google that for you. https://jewishbusinessnews.com/2018/03/07/jews-make-19-forbes-200-worlds-richest-list/ https://jewishbusinessnews.com/2018/03/07/jews-make-19-forbe...
  - jshevek 8y ago
    These are simply claims of fact about the world. One can easily investigate their veracity and see if an error has been made. There is nothing anti-semitic about acknowledging Jewish success.
  - GavinMcG 8y ago
btilly 8y ago
That slavery was horrible, nobody debates. That reparations are the best way to address it is a different story. Pinker's book Better Angels of Our Nature documents, among other things, how ethnic conflicts have been successfully dismantled around the world. A key part of the successful recipe is a final round of partial justice whereupon only the most egregious crimes get addressed, the aggressors accept the truth of what they did, issue full apologies, and all claims are extinguished. There is no attempt at real justice, but it does end conflict and leaves everyone better off. By contrast cries for justice have historically resulted in a new round of conflict, which creates a round of retribution, and a continuation of conflict that leaves everyone worse off. The USA went through this effort after the Civil War. All claims to reparations for slavery should be considered long extinguished. And as much as you don't like it, the US descendants of slavery are massively better off than their ancestors were, and are likewise both better off and happier than most of their relatives in Africa. It is clear that injustice is not done. I fully support an end to the Drug War, a reduction of prison sentences and a similar round to end the ongoing and current conflict over the same. Not based on long past claims to victimhood based on the slave trade, but based on current injustice. However we have a lot more examples today of how to successfully end ethnic problems in countries as diverse as Northern Ireland, Timor and Liberia. There is clearly a right way to do it, and that is what I would want us to do now. Very notably it requires a focus on closing the books on past history, a final round of forgiveness/redemption, followed by a better path forward. Which is the exact opposite of the kind of justice that the reparations crowd is asking for.
- zepto 8y ago
  Ok, so pay reparations for the drug war?
  - btilly 8y ago
    For the damage caused to communities by the implementation of racist policies ostensibly in support of the drug war? Absolutely!
  - iguy 8y ago
    We do something much simpler, we re-distribute based on income. And periodically adjust up or down (via the ordinary democratic process) how much we do this. Would it be better to set up a separate parallel system to adjudicate precisely who deserves what? If you had a rough childhood because your dad was in prison, he got 10 years when now we'd prefer a sentencing guide which would give him 2, we're going to credit you with tickets for 8 years... and your neighbor whose dad simply died in a car-accident with zero? Create a Department of the Deserving Poor? Maybe we should just try to make things better for anyone who had a rough start, through no fault of their own.
hnuser123457 8y ago
Great. Now where do I sign up to receive my reparations from those bloody English who starved my people to death by exporting all of their food then had the nerve to call it a famine? Or how about from the US government for enslaving my uncles and sending them to their deaths in Vietnam?

jchrisa 8y ago

Here is a good article that runs the numbers on what reparations could look like: https://qz.com/1012692/this-is-what-reparations-could-actually-look-like-in-america/ https://qz.com/1012692/this-is-what-reparations-could-actual...

steve76 8y ago
The real evil of fascism is not racism as evil as that is. It's the nihilism and amorality, the weaponizing of the absurd and turning everything grotesque for selfish petty celebrity and sadism. We really are fools to think hundreds of millions of fascist and marxists went away overnight. America taught the world one lesson, and we taught it well. Leave Americans alone. The world's evil is still there, as it always has been, and seeps into the marginalized parts onto truly poor victims who are degraded and brought to their destruction. Think of that next time you do drugs or watch porn or gamble. People who despise all human rights prey on others there. To those, know we are created in self-evidence. You will never win over us. We've touched the Sun. We've left our star. We soon will cure cancer and all diseases of the human mind. We bring matter out of nothing and scatter mass as if it was nothing. It's not our part to defeat you. It's ours to completely embarrass you and your pathetic schemes.

merpnderp 8y ago

Sure, just as long as everyone who's descended from a culture that held slaves pays reparations too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery

maxerickson 8y ago
The ultimate form of leadership, refusing to do the right thing until everyone else substantively agrees to also do the right thing.

phkahler 8y ago

We also need to pay attention to this line from the article: >> ..but how they face adversity is also a factor, speculates Dr. Shrira. “After all, the transmission of trauma is also the way the story is told. I dont mean to diminish past events, or the lasting effects. But at the same time, we need to find ways to remember the lessons of history without reinforcing those effects.

jlawson 8y ago

You probably don't want to bring up Jews while making this argument, given that their outstandingly high status and wealth in society kind of demonstrates that group social outcomes are more driven by internal characteristics than external circumstances. They are the people who suffered the worst oppression, literally losing half their people to murder very recently, and who are still the most targeted victims of hate crime. Yet somehow they also ended up comprising >17% of global billionares despite being 0.2% of global population, are massively overrepresented at top schools, in leadership positions at all levels of society, government, and law. It's hard to argue that outcomes are driven by external circumstances (as opposed to internal characteristics of people) given facts like that. If trauma had strict generational effects, Jews would be in ghettoes now and Israel would look like Burundi. Articles like the OP need to make some explanation for the counterexamples like the Jews. Otherwise they're just hammering on their own confirmation bias - seeking examples to confirm the theory, instead of grappling with examples that seem to refute it.

deogeo 8y ago
> Yet somehow they also ended up comprising >17% of global billionares despite being 0.2% of global population, are massively overrepresented at top schools, in leadership positions at all levels of society, government, and law. Do you have any sources on this? Because it sounds like typical "Jews control the world" antisemitism.
- vibrato 8y ago
  Let me google that for you. https://jewishbusinessnews.com/2018/03/07/jews-make-19-forbes-200-worlds-richest-list/ https://jewishbusinessnews.com/2018/03/07/jews-make-19-forbe...
- jshevek 8y ago
  These are simply claims of fact about the world. One can easily investigate their veracity and see if an error has been made. There is nothing anti-semitic about acknowledging Jewish success.
- GavinMcG 8y ago

btilly 8y ago

That slavery was horrible, nobody debates. That reparations are the best way to address it is a different story. Pinker's book Better Angels of Our Nature documents, among other things, how ethnic conflicts have been successfully dismantled around the world. A key part of the successful recipe is a final round of partial justice whereupon only the most egregious crimes get addressed, the aggressors accept the truth of what they did, issue full apologies, and all claims are extinguished. There is no attempt at real justice, but it does end conflict and leaves everyone better off. By contrast cries for justice have historically resulted in a new round of conflict, which creates a round of retribution, and a continuation of conflict that leaves everyone worse off. The USA went through this effort after the Civil War. All claims to reparations for slavery should be considered long extinguished. And as much as you don't like it, the US descendants of slavery are massively better off than their ancestors were, and are likewise both better off and happier than most of their relatives in Africa. It is clear that injustice is not done. I fully support an end to the Drug War, a reduction of prison sentences and a similar round to end the ongoing and current conflict over the same. Not based on long past claims to victimhood based on the slave trade, but based on current injustice. However we have a lot more examples today of how to successfully end ethnic problems in countries as diverse as Northern Ireland, Timor and Liberia. There is clearly a right way to do it, and that is what I would want us to do now. Very notably it requires a focus on closing the books on past history, a final round of forgiveness/redemption, followed by a better path forward. Which is the exact opposite of the kind of justice that the reparations crowd is asking for.

zepto 8y ago
Ok, so pay reparations for the drug war?
- btilly 8y ago
  For the damage caused to communities by the implementation of racist policies ostensibly in support of the drug war? Absolutely!
- iguy 8y ago
  We do something much simpler, we re-distribute based on income. And periodically adjust up or down (via the ordinary democratic process) how much we do this. Would it be better to set up a separate parallel system to adjudicate precisely who deserves what? If you had a rough childhood because your dad was in prison, he got 10 years when now we'd prefer a sentencing guide which would give him 2, we're going to credit you with tickets for 8 years... and your neighbor whose dad simply died in a car-accident with zero? Create a Department of the Deserving Poor? Maybe we should just try to make things better for anyone who had a rough start, through no fault of their own.

hnuser123457 8y ago

Great. Now where do I sign up to receive my reparations from those bloody English who starved my people to death by exporting all of their food then had the nerve to call it a famine? Or how about from the US government for enslaving my uncles and sending them to their deaths in Vietnam?