4 ms·

Looking at those charts, why are libertarians considered right-wing? They may be so economically, but they definitely are to the left (or even the far left) soc

by wbxrs 8y ago

Looking at those charts, why are libertarians considered right-wing? They may be so economically, but they definitely are to the left (or even the far left) socially. Giving that this post talks about social stuff, and not economical stuff, I believe that 51%/49% chart to be simply wrong.

thebooktocome 8y ago
They may be socially liberal as individuals, but they are all too willing to curtail the government's ability to protect the rights of minorities. That's why they get classified as right-wing by most everyone except themselves. For example, the libertarian solution to the Christian baker, gay wedding cake problem is that the government does not have the right to stipulate non-discrimination laws for public-facing businesses. Follow that logic to its natural conclusion, and we're back to segregated restaurants. Doesn't sound very leftist to me.
- rosser 8y ago
  The counter-argument to that is often something like, "Well, people just won't patronize the segregated establishments, because who would support that?!", and with that, we've demonstrably already lost touch with reality.
- Stronico 8y ago
  That's like saying having legal abortion guarantees a zero percent birthrate. It would be legal to for restaurant owners to offer segregated sections if they wanted to, that's all.
  - mikeash 8y ago
    And we know from past experience that the end result of this is greatly reduced facilities available for minorities.
- sigstoat 8y ago
  > That's why they get classified as right-wing by most everyone except themselves. "libertarians are always classified as X" reliably identifies a person as opposite-of-X. if you hit up the conservative forums, you'll find libertarians regularly described as dope-smoking lefty hippies, and whatever else.
  - wbxrs 8y ago
    You have a point, I guess I had never seen it that way.
  - iron0013 8y ago
    That hasn't been my experience. On most conservative forums, most people--clearly conservative--describe themselves as "libertarian". Look at elected officials: who's more likely to describe themselves as a "libertarian", Republican politicians or Democratic politicians?
    - thebooktocome 8y ago
      It wasn't too long ago that Paul Ryan was considered a libertarian, and a positive direction for the Republican party.
    - sigstoat 8y ago
      you're talking about self-description. i wasn't.
      - iron0013 8y ago
        What? I don't follow. Why would conservatives, who describe themselves as "libertarians", call libertarians "dope-smoking lefty hippies"? I'm saying your account of how conservatives describe libertarians rings false. Conservatives don't consider libertarians to be "them", they consider libertarians to be "us"--that is, they don't make a distinction between conservatives and libertarians.
- aeorgnoieang 8y ago
  I roughly agree with your diagnosis about why libertarianism is considered right-wing but your example elides some pertinent details, e.g. segregation was sometimes (often?) imposed on private parties by the relevant governments.
kerbalspacepro 8y ago
Libertarians are considered right-wing because the left-right axis is simply, "How much do you think the government should be involved in the issues?" When it comes to economics, the answer "more" is left and the answer "less" is right-leaning. When it comes to social issues, the answer "more" is left and the answer "less" is right-leaning. How can this be? Well, the answer is that while social conservatives sound very authoritarian- and they are- when it comes to things like gay marriage, sex, etc, the authoritarian force for them doesn't come from the State. Ideally, it comes from society and the church. They would rather the government not get involved at all, private beating do the work. Socially liberal people, however, want the government to protect this behavior. Notice that the Left didn't take the 2015 SC decision and say, "Yay, we've got marriage, we're done." No, they wanted the government to protect the employment rights and other various rights of gays. Where do libertarians stand? Well, they don't want the government to help! When given a hateful baker, they say, "Hate and bake, I don't care, the market will handle it!" On the spectrum of answers to "How much do you think the government should be involved in the issues?" this is obviously a right-leaning answer. The distinguishing factor is that libertarians don't have any personal gripe against the discriminated, they just think the government shouldn't raise a hand to help them. tl;dr: The Left-Right access is about government involvement, and libertarians want less involvement, just like their more "socially conservative" counterparts.
- rosser 8y ago
  On the one hand, I think your comment, while excellent, is an egregious oversimplification. But it's actually the left-right axis that's the egregious oversimplification, and as long as people insist on reducing political questions to that one axis, the "discourse" will continue to be as meaningless and "more heat than light" as ever.
  - kerbalspacepro 8y ago
    Definitely, agree that it is an oversimplification. Political science lends itself to that failure mode pretty easily.
- goatlover 8y ago
nyolfen 8y ago
in the present american political environment, the left outgroups libertarians while they find policy influence on the right
Nasrudith 8y ago
While it may be theoretically true there is a small linguistic hint at the bias - you hear "left-libertarian" as its own distinct term as opposed to right-libertarian implying a default of the term as right leaning. Not going to get into any messier qualitatives like no trur scotsman/libertarian in name only or crypto-politicals.

by wbxrs 8y ago

thebooktocome 8y ago

They may be socially liberal as individuals, but they are all too willing to curtail the government's ability to protect the rights of minorities. That's why they get classified as right-wing by most everyone except themselves. For example, the libertarian solution to the Christian baker, gay wedding cake problem is that the government does not have the right to stipulate non-discrimination laws for public-facing businesses. Follow that logic to its natural conclusion, and we're back to segregated restaurants. Doesn't sound very leftist to me.

rosser 8y ago
The counter-argument to that is often something like, "Well, people just won't patronize the segregated establishments, because who would support that?!", and with that, we've demonstrably already lost touch with reality.
Stronico 8y ago
That's like saying having legal abortion guarantees a zero percent birthrate. It would be legal to for restaurant owners to offer segregated sections if they wanted to, that's all.
- mikeash 8y ago
  And we know from past experience that the end result of this is greatly reduced facilities available for minorities.
sigstoat 8y ago
> That's why they get classified as right-wing by most everyone except themselves. "libertarians are always classified as X" reliably identifies a person as opposite-of-X. if you hit up the conservative forums, you'll find libertarians regularly described as dope-smoking lefty hippies, and whatever else.
- wbxrs 8y ago
  You have a point, I guess I had never seen it that way.
- iron0013 8y ago
  That hasn't been my experience. On most conservative forums, most people--clearly conservative--describe themselves as "libertarian". Look at elected officials: who's more likely to describe themselves as a "libertarian", Republican politicians or Democratic politicians?
  - thebooktocome 8y ago
    It wasn't too long ago that Paul Ryan was considered a libertarian, and a positive direction for the Republican party.
  - sigstoat 8y ago
    you're talking about self-description. i wasn't.
    - iron0013 8y ago
      What? I don't follow. Why would conservatives, who describe themselves as "libertarians", call libertarians "dope-smoking lefty hippies"? I'm saying your account of how conservatives describe libertarians rings false. Conservatives don't consider libertarians to be "them", they consider libertarians to be "us"--that is, they don't make a distinction between conservatives and libertarians.
aeorgnoieang 8y ago
I roughly agree with your diagnosis about why libertarianism is considered right-wing but your example elides some pertinent details, e.g. segregation was sometimes (often?) imposed on private parties by the relevant governments.

kerbalspacepro 8y ago

Libertarians are considered right-wing because the left-right axis is simply, "How much do you think the government should be involved in the issues?" When it comes to economics, the answer "more" is left and the answer "less" is right-leaning. When it comes to social issues, the answer "more" is left and the answer "less" is right-leaning. How can this be? Well, the answer is that while social conservatives sound very authoritarian- and they are- when it comes to things like gay marriage, sex, etc, the authoritarian force for them doesn't come from the State. Ideally, it comes from society and the church. They would rather the government not get involved at all, private beating do the work. Socially liberal people, however, want the government to protect this behavior. Notice that the Left didn't take the 2015 SC decision and say, "Yay, we've got marriage, we're done." No, they wanted the government to protect the employment rights and other various rights of gays. Where do libertarians stand? Well, they don't want the government to help! When given a hateful baker, they say, "Hate and bake, I don't care, the market will handle it!" On the spectrum of answers to "How much do you think the government should be involved in the issues?" this is obviously a right-leaning answer. The distinguishing factor is that libertarians don't have any personal gripe against the discriminated, they just think the government shouldn't raise a hand to help them. tl;dr: The Left-Right access is about government involvement, and libertarians want less involvement, just like their more "socially conservative" counterparts.

rosser 8y ago
On the one hand, I think your comment, while excellent, is an egregious oversimplification. But it's actually the left-right axis that's the egregious oversimplification, and as long as people insist on reducing political questions to that one axis, the "discourse" will continue to be as meaningless and "more heat than light" as ever.
- kerbalspacepro 8y ago
  Definitely, agree that it is an oversimplification. Political science lends itself to that failure mode pretty easily.
goatlover 8y ago

nyolfen 8y ago

in the present american political environment, the left outgroups libertarians while they find policy influence on the right

Nasrudith 8y ago

While it may be theoretically true there is a small linguistic hint at the bias - you hear "left-libertarian" as its own distinct term as opposed to right-libertarian implying a default of the term as right leaning. Not going to get into any messier qualitatives like no trur scotsman/libertarian in name only or crypto-politicals.