4 ms·

Sounds like maybe he was just an asshole. How do you know this was due to his autism and not due to just that?

by m0zg 8y ago

mruts 8y ago
Maybe it was a combination of the two, but let me tell you, his inability for empathy and emotional understanding was the crux of the problem. I've known a handful of autistic people and while I definitely know some really nice autistic people, I think that being a manager requires a lot of empathy and understanding that they just aren't equipped to handle.. When you have power over people and you are unable to empathize with them, you become a tyrant.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- ficklepickle 8y ago
  Your generalizations are discriminatory and unfounded. People on the spectrum are, well, a whole spectrum. I, personally, am on the spectrum and have very strong empathy and emotional understanding. It wasn't natural, but it is a skill I developed after much hard work trying to get by in a normie world. It does, however, cause a high cognitive load. My analogy is software emulation. Most people have dedicated hardware, but I have to do it in software at a cost of increased CPU usage. Tldr; you can't make sweeping generalizations about which jobs a diverse group of people should be allowed to work. Bad bosses come in all shapes and sizes.
  - mruts 8y ago
    yes, but, do you think that there are some personality types or people who are more likely than average to be bad then good at being a manager? Don’t you think that autistic people might possibly be on one end vs the other? Also, don’t you think having to “emulate” things reduces your throughput compared to a “normie”? Wouldn’t this imply that you might be worse than other people at managing people because your pipe is saturated?
    - m0zg 8y ago
      >> there are some personality types or people Yes, assholes in particular are bad at being managers. On a more serious / less sarcastic note, you seem to have a preconceived notion of what autism should look like and/or what range of behaviors it entails. There _are_ types of it that would cause one to be an exceptionally bad manager, but there is also a strong possibility (that I think you need to consider) that your manager's flaws weren't caused by autism at all. People with severe autism typically don't make it into management positions in the first place. I consider myself to be on the spectrum. I'm never the "heart of the party" (nor do I ever feel any desire to go to parties), I find it somewhat anxiety inducing to approach people I don't know well, stuff like that, pretty mild. If it I didn't feel like it impacts my life in a negative way, I'd call this "strong introversion" or the like. Yet I'm basically the polar opposite of what you've described in your original post (other than being hard-ass on code quality), and I've received glowing praise from my former reports. I give people guidance and autonomy, and let them be adults. And if they aren't, I give them more guidance and perhaps very slightly less autonomy. If they can't function in this set-up, we part ways. This, by the way, happened only once. The person just didn't want the job I think.
      - mruts 8y ago
        If people with severe autism don’t make it into management, isn’t it likely that the bell curve is shifted versus neurotypical people on who can be a good manager? Wouldn’t this also imply that an autistic manager is more likely to be a worse manager than a neurotypical person? (Just considering the statistical distributions). Of course, this doesn’t have anything to do with you (according to your post, you seem like a good manager), I’m talking about the statistical distributions. And while I understand why someone might get offended by a statement of the form: short people are slower than average at running when you are a short person who runs very fast, I am just describing the distribution (in which any individual could be an outlier), not an affirmative statement like: there does not exist an autistic person who is also a good manager.
        m0zg 8y ago
        I hear what you're saying, and I'm sorry you had to endure this. But again, unless the person had a very strong degree of autism, there's a strong possibility that they were just an asshole towards you, rather than not able to feel empathy on a more fundamental level. FWIW I have encountered plenty of socially awkward and personally unaware people, as well as more than a fair share of just plain assholes, but I have never (in 25 years in the profession) encountered anybody in a manager position so impaired that they'd turn the lives of their reports into a living hell _because of that impairment_. FWIW the worst manager I've seen was an extraverted, narcissistic psychopath.
- throes_death 8y ago
  > his inability for empathy and emotional understanding was the crux of the problem oh the irony!

Sounds like maybe he was just an asshole. How do you know this was due to his autism and not due to just that?

by m0zg 8y ago

Sounds like maybe he was just an asshole. How do you know this was due to his autism and not due to just that?

Maybe it was a combination of the two, but let me tell you, his inability for empathy and emotional understanding was the crux of the problem. I've known a handful of autistic people and while I definitely know some really nice autistic people, I think that being a manager requires a lot of empathy and understanding that they just aren't equipped to handle.. When you have power over people and you are unable to empathize with them, you become a tyrant.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
ficklepickle 8y ago
Your generalizations are discriminatory and unfounded. People on the spectrum are, well, a whole spectrum. I, personally, am on the spectrum and have very strong empathy and emotional understanding. It wasn't natural, but it is a skill I developed after much hard work trying to get by in a normie world. It does, however, cause a high cognitive load. My analogy is software emulation. Most people have dedicated hardware, but I have to do it in software at a cost of increased CPU usage. Tldr; you can't make sweeping generalizations about which jobs a diverse group of people should be allowed to work. Bad bosses come in all shapes and sizes.
- mruts 8y ago
  yes, but, do you think that there are some personality types or people who are more likely than average to be bad then good at being a manager? Don’t you think that autistic people might possibly be on one end vs the other? Also, don’t you think having to “emulate” things reduces your throughput compared to a “normie”? Wouldn’t this imply that you might be worse than other people at managing people because your pipe is saturated?
  - m0zg 8y ago
    >> there are some personality types or people Yes, assholes in particular are bad at being managers. On a more serious / less sarcastic note, you seem to have a preconceived notion of what autism should look like and/or what range of behaviors it entails. There _are_ types of it that would cause one to be an exceptionally bad manager, but there is also a strong possibility (that I think you need to consider) that your manager's flaws weren't caused by autism at all. People with severe autism typically don't make it into management positions in the first place. I consider myself to be on the spectrum. I'm never the "heart of the party" (nor do I ever feel any desire to go to parties), I find it somewhat anxiety inducing to approach people I don't know well, stuff like that, pretty mild. If it I didn't feel like it impacts my life in a negative way, I'd call this "strong introversion" or the like. Yet I'm basically the polar opposite of what you've described in your original post (other than being hard-ass on code quality), and I've received glowing praise from my former reports. I give people guidance and autonomy, and let them be adults. And if they aren't, I give them more guidance and perhaps very slightly less autonomy. If they can't function in this set-up, we part ways. This, by the way, happened only once. The person just didn't want the job I think.
    - mruts 8y ago
      If people with severe autism don’t make it into management, isn’t it likely that the bell curve is shifted versus neurotypical people on who can be a good manager? Wouldn’t this also imply that an autistic manager is more likely to be a worse manager than a neurotypical person? (Just considering the statistical distributions). Of course, this doesn’t have anything to do with you (according to your post, you seem like a good manager), I’m talking about the statistical distributions. And while I understand why someone might get offended by a statement of the form: short people are slower than average at running when you are a short person who runs very fast, I am just describing the distribution (in which any individual could be an outlier), not an affirmative statement like: there does not exist an autistic person who is also a good manager.
      - m0zg 8y ago
        I hear what you're saying, and I'm sorry you had to endure this. But again, unless the person had a very strong degree of autism, there's a strong possibility that they were just an asshole towards you, rather than not able to feel empathy on a more fundamental level. FWIW I have encountered plenty of socially awkward and personally unaware people, as well as more than a fair share of just plain assholes, but I have never (in 25 years in the profession) encountered anybody in a manager position so impaired that they'd turn the lives of their reports into a living hell _because of that impairment_. FWIW the worst manager I've seen was an extraverted, narcissistic psychopath.
throes_death 8y ago
> his inability for empathy and emotional understanding was the crux of the problem oh the irony!