4 ms·

Why I Moved from San Francisco to Paris and joined Alan

12 points by kkwteh 8y ago

dannykwells 8y ago
Articles like this are becoming so common - yes, we get it, everyone in the bay wants to leave. And some people do and they're always happier. And yet, a lot of people don't, and my feeling is, they make that decision rationally as well. I'd be much more interested in stories of people, who despite the terrors of SF (and despite not being rich/a founder) decide to stay and a build a life and family there. I feel like those stories are much less common and more interesting.
weinr0ck 8y ago
I rarely chime in but I have to give warning about moving to Paris. Although I'm a huge francophile, and so is my wife, it can be not quite as easy for some to make a living there. - To start, your salary isn't going to be what you think. When I moved to Paris in 2011 I made $100,000 in NY. My new job in Paris was 42,000 (euros) a year. So right off the bat you're probably going to be budgeting more. Plus, my wife didn't have the right to work. I believe Macron is changing that, but it doesn't mean it won't go back. - You'll still have to pay Federal taxes if you're a US citizen. I was able to contact H&R block from Paris and sent them ALL my paystubs in order to prove that I had paid French taxes. It didn't matter, I still had to pay in a small some for federal taxes. You'll be double taxed US/FR. - There's a 3 month trial period where the company can fire you for any reason and simply state "We don't feel you're a good fit." Sound familiar? This trial period can even be extended for up to 9 months. Once the company feels like actually hiring you, that's when you get your CDI (Contract Duration Indeterminée). Then you pretty much have to do either something illegal or absolutely nothing to get fired. Both of which take time and evidence that the company has to prepare (can take up to a year). - There's a 3 month period to quit!! In order to balance the CDI, companies have the right to sue you for "lost productivity" if you quit without giving a 3 month notice. Don't think you're safe if you scurry back to the States. I read a blog (not sure how truthful it was), but they found her and sued her from Paris. - If you are in your trial period it's especially hard to start a bank account, rent an apartment, etc. You're considered too much of a risk. - If you have an accent you'll be treated like a tourist. I had a visa, carte vital, and bank account, but it takes a long, long, long time to make actual french friends. My wife and I made friends with other immigrants, mostly British, Irish, and other Americans. People say on average it takes 3-5 years to become someones friend (if they're french). Once you've made a french friend, loyalty is expected, and you'll ruin everything by being flaky. - You have to play the 'game'. What's the 'game'? The art of conversation. So if it's difficult to get a bank account in your trial period, how did I manage to do it? I tried 3 different branches at Paribas and finally found one where the guy was willing to listen. Turns out he had traveled quite a bit himself. So what did I do with my bad attitude of being denied twice before hime? NOTHING! My reply "Oh thank you so much, you're really helping me out." Also, if you don't want a burned baguette, walk through the door of the bakery and say "Bonjour." When you're done, you say "Au revoir." If you don't you've broken protocol, this activity shall be logged, and the baker shall and will use it against you later. Those are things to watch, here are the benefits of living in france. - Personally, I love the language. - Healthcare, healthcare, healthcare. Oh and did I mention healthcare. I have very conservative parents who constantly say "I don't want the government choosing which doctor I go to." This couldn't be further from the truth. I got really sick in france, and you will probably too. The germs are different and your body isn't used to them. I Went to a clinic and just like the good ol' US I thought "This doc doesn't have a clue nor does he care." Then, guess what, I went to another doctor and she was amazing! Got the right meds and got 100% better. - The food! Most of the time companies give you coupons so you can go get a hot lunch from most restaurants at a discount. - The infrastructure. Don't like traffic? Neither do the french. The metro is amazing. - Work life balance. It's actually a law that you're NOT required to answer emails over the weekend. Everyone takes the month of August off (it's a little more nuanced than that, but it's normal). - People hang out in the park. Didn't know how awesome that would be until I started doing it. All in all I stayed with my wife in Paris for 1 year. Without her having the right to work it was just too hard to save any money. So we moved back. Given the chance to move back to France, I would in a heartbeat. However, maybe not Paris, maybe more like Montpellier. If anyone has any questions about my experience, feel free to reach out.
- 1024core 8y ago
  > If you have an accent you'll be treated like a tourist. I had a visa, carte vital, and bank account, but it takes a long, long, long time to make actual french friends. My wife and I made friends with other immigrants, mostly British, Irish, and other Americans. People say on average it takes 3-5 years to become someones friend (if they're french). That is quite common if you're an ex-pat. You'll make friends in the ex-pat community long before you make good local friends. > and you'll ruin everything by being flaky. Maybe it's an American thing (being flaky), but that doesn't mean others have to accept it. Do you value the friendship? Then stop being flaky. > If you don't you've broken protocol, this activity shall be logged, and the baker shall and will use it against you later. Sounds like the Soup Nazi from Seinfeld?
- kkwteh 8y ago
  Author here. My salary in Paris is definitely quite a bit lower than what it was in San Francisco, but I think the lower cost of health care, child care, education and housing largely make up for it. In particular, I feel much less exposed in terms of negative tail events. I'm much less worried about a chronic medical condition or college to wipe me or my future family out financially. Totally agree about language, healthcare, food, metro, and work-life balance. There are some things money can't buy.
  - weinr0ck 8y ago
    If you don’t mind can you at least give me a range of your salary? Just to see how much has changed. Don’t obligated though.
    - kkwteh 8y ago
      Here's an old blog post with the salary grid for the company. It's a bit out of date. Today the salaries are somewhat higher and equity grants are smaller. https://www.maddyness.com/2017/06/25/maddyrex-pourquoi-grille-salaire-ouverte/ https://www.maddyness.com/2017/06/25/maddyrex-pourquoi-grill...
  - dmode 8y ago
geebee 8y ago
These articles are kind of fascinating to me. I'm in my late 40s and grew up in SF, and I'm raising my kids here. The change in SF and how it is perceived is stunning. SF used the be the place you moved to when you were tired of the careerism of New York, Los Angeles, hell, maybe even Paris. In recent years, it has become the place people move from. I actually think some people might actually move from SF to NY because they're tired of the rat race and want to drop out of it, not because they want to join it. As for Paris, well, nobody needs an excuse to want to move to Paris. A couple of minor points: "San Francisco never felt like home, a place to put down roots. Everyone I knew came from somewhere else, and no one was planning on staying around for long. Most people worked in tech, and they were too busy with their careers to have time to build real relationships with anyone else. As for housing, even with a good tech salary, I still felt like home prices in the area were way too high for me to ever contemplate buying a place of my own." If you'd stayed, you wouldn't have felt this way forever. I have a friend who commented about this. He said that when he moved to SF, he wondered who was actually from SF. The longer he stayed, the higher the percentage of people he knew who had grown up in SF or nearby. Having kids and raising them here increases it even more. I can't say you needed to try harder to stay, because housing is nuts here and it is very rational to decide not to bother, even if they can afford too stay. I have, ahem, seen people claim they are priced out of SF who turn their nose up at my south-of-280 neighborhood. But even there, you'd have trouble getting in for much under a mil. So at this point, yeah, I pretty much have total understanding for people who feel this way, though a small part of me still wonders if you didn't meet people outside of tech, including the people who grew up here, because you made a choice not to leave that bubble. "Being an immigrant in France has also been a much more pleasant experience compared to the US." I've heard this. I mean this as a genuine question, since I don't know much about it, but... do you think this would be the case if you were an unskilled, low income immigrant, not from Canada or other prosperous country?
- kkwteh 8y ago
  I'm the writer. I have no doubt that I wouldn't be treated as kindly if I weren't skilled and educated. However they do treat me pretty well here. In the US all of the immigration officials I have to interact with seem to be getting more and more hostile. Markedly so since Trump was elected.

12 points by kkwteh 8y ago

Articles like this are becoming so common - yes, we get it, everyone in the bay wants to leave. And some people do and they're always happier. And yet, a lot of people don't, and my feeling is, they make that decision rationally as well. I'd be much more interested in stories of people, who despite the terrors of SF (and despite not being rich/a founder) decide to stay and a build a life and family there. I feel like those stories are much less common and more interesting.

weinr0ck 8y ago

I rarely chime in but I have to give warning about moving to Paris. Although I'm a huge francophile, and so is my wife, it can be not quite as easy for some to make a living there. - To start, your salary isn't going to be what you think. When I moved to Paris in 2011 I made $100,000 in NY. My new job in Paris was 42,000 (euros) a year. So right off the bat you're probably going to be budgeting more. Plus, my wife didn't have the right to work. I believe Macron is changing that, but it doesn't mean it won't go back. - You'll still have to pay Federal taxes if you're a US citizen. I was able to contact H&R block from Paris and sent them ALL my paystubs in order to prove that I had paid French taxes. It didn't matter, I still had to pay in a small some for federal taxes. You'll be double taxed US/FR. - There's a 3 month trial period where the company can fire you for any reason and simply state "We don't feel you're a good fit." Sound familiar? This trial period can even be extended for up to 9 months. Once the company feels like actually hiring you, that's when you get your CDI (Contract Duration Indeterminée). Then you pretty much have to do either something illegal or absolutely nothing to get fired. Both of which take time and evidence that the company has to prepare (can take up to a year). - There's a 3 month period to quit!! In order to balance the CDI, companies have the right to sue you for "lost productivity" if you quit without giving a 3 month notice. Don't think you're safe if you scurry back to the States. I read a blog (not sure how truthful it was), but they found her and sued her from Paris. - If you are in your trial period it's especially hard to start a bank account, rent an apartment, etc. You're considered too much of a risk. - If you have an accent you'll be treated like a tourist. I had a visa, carte vital, and bank account, but it takes a long, long, long time to make actual french friends. My wife and I made friends with other immigrants, mostly British, Irish, and other Americans. People say on average it takes 3-5 years to become someones friend (if they're french). Once you've made a french friend, loyalty is expected, and you'll ruin everything by being flaky. - You have to play the 'game'. What's the 'game'? The art of conversation. So if it's difficult to get a bank account in your trial period, how did I manage to do it? I tried 3 different branches at Paribas and finally found one where the guy was willing to listen. Turns out he had traveled quite a bit himself. So what did I do with my bad attitude of being denied twice before hime? NOTHING! My reply "Oh thank you so much, you're really helping me out." Also, if you don't want a burned baguette, walk through the door of the bakery and say "Bonjour." When you're done, you say "Au revoir." If you don't you've broken protocol, this activity shall be logged, and the baker shall and will use it against you later. Those are things to watch, here are the benefits of living in france. - Personally, I love the language. - Healthcare, healthcare, healthcare. Oh and did I mention healthcare. I have very conservative parents who constantly say "I don't want the government choosing which doctor I go to." This couldn't be further from the truth. I got really sick in france, and you will probably too. The germs are different and your body isn't used to them. I Went to a clinic and just like the good ol' US I thought "This doc doesn't have a clue nor does he care." Then, guess what, I went to another doctor and she was amazing! Got the right meds and got 100% better. - The food! Most of the time companies give you coupons so you can go get a hot lunch from most restaurants at a discount. - The infrastructure. Don't like traffic? Neither do the french. The metro is amazing. - Work life balance. It's actually a law that you're NOT required to answer emails over the weekend. Everyone takes the month of August off (it's a little more nuanced than that, but it's normal). - People hang out in the park. Didn't know how awesome that would be until I started doing it. All in all I stayed with my wife in Paris for 1 year. Without her having the right to work it was just too hard to save any money. So we moved back. Given the chance to move back to France, I would in a heartbeat. However, maybe not Paris, maybe more like Montpellier. If anyone has any questions about my experience, feel free to reach out.

1024core 8y ago
> If you have an accent you'll be treated like a tourist. I had a visa, carte vital, and bank account, but it takes a long, long, long time to make actual french friends. My wife and I made friends with other immigrants, mostly British, Irish, and other Americans. People say on average it takes 3-5 years to become someones friend (if they're french). That is quite common if you're an ex-pat. You'll make friends in the ex-pat community long before you make good local friends. > and you'll ruin everything by being flaky. Maybe it's an American thing (being flaky), but that doesn't mean others have to accept it. Do you value the friendship? Then stop being flaky. > If you don't you've broken protocol, this activity shall be logged, and the baker shall and will use it against you later. Sounds like the Soup Nazi from Seinfeld?
kkwteh 8y ago
Author here. My salary in Paris is definitely quite a bit lower than what it was in San Francisco, but I think the lower cost of health care, child care, education and housing largely make up for it. In particular, I feel much less exposed in terms of negative tail events. I'm much less worried about a chronic medical condition or college to wipe me or my future family out financially. Totally agree about language, healthcare, food, metro, and work-life balance. There are some things money can't buy.
- weinr0ck 8y ago
  If you don’t mind can you at least give me a range of your salary? Just to see how much has changed. Don’t obligated though.
  - kkwteh 8y ago
    Here's an old blog post with the salary grid for the company. It's a bit out of date. Today the salaries are somewhat higher and equity grants are smaller. https://www.maddyness.com/2017/06/25/maddyrex-pourquoi-grille-salaire-ouverte/ https://www.maddyness.com/2017/06/25/maddyrex-pourquoi-grill...
- dmode 8y ago

geebee 8y ago

These articles are kind of fascinating to me. I'm in my late 40s and grew up in SF, and I'm raising my kids here. The change in SF and how it is perceived is stunning. SF used the be the place you moved to when you were tired of the careerism of New York, Los Angeles, hell, maybe even Paris. In recent years, it has become the place people move from. I actually think some people might actually move from SF to NY because they're tired of the rat race and want to drop out of it, not because they want to join it. As for Paris, well, nobody needs an excuse to want to move to Paris. A couple of minor points: "San Francisco never felt like home, a place to put down roots. Everyone I knew came from somewhere else, and no one was planning on staying around for long. Most people worked in tech, and they were too busy with their careers to have time to build real relationships with anyone else. As for housing, even with a good tech salary, I still felt like home prices in the area were way too high for me to ever contemplate buying a place of my own." If you'd stayed, you wouldn't have felt this way forever. I have a friend who commented about this. He said that when he moved to SF, he wondered who was actually from SF. The longer he stayed, the higher the percentage of people he knew who had grown up in SF or nearby. Having kids and raising them here increases it even more. I can't say you needed to try harder to stay, because housing is nuts here and it is very rational to decide not to bother, even if they can afford too stay. I have, ahem, seen people claim they are priced out of SF who turn their nose up at my south-of-280 neighborhood. But even there, you'd have trouble getting in for much under a mil. So at this point, yeah, I pretty much have total understanding for people who feel this way, though a small part of me still wonders if you didn't meet people outside of tech, including the people who grew up here, because you made a choice not to leave that bubble. "Being an immigrant in France has also been a much more pleasant experience compared to the US." I've heard this. I mean this as a genuine question, since I don't know much about it, but... do you think this would be the case if you were an unskilled, low income immigrant, not from Canada or other prosperous country?

kkwteh 8y ago
I'm the writer. I have no doubt that I wouldn't be treated as kindly if I weren't skilled and educated. However they do treat me pretty well here. In the US all of the immigration officials I have to interact with seem to be getting more and more hostile. Markedly so since Trump was elected.