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> Why does one have to make money with open source? Why does that have to be a goal in and of itself Money is air... without money good luck competing against

> Why does one have to make money with open source? Why does that have to be a goal in and of itself Money is air... without money good luck competing against other technologies. I find that the OSS community is insanely naive about where OSS comes from. There's this assumption that it just comes for free like manna from heaven. I seem HN geeks (saying that in a good way) say how they want to use Firefox vs Chrome because Firefox is somehow less evil. But where does Firefox get its money from? Google. Google gets its money from ads. If you track down the source of all the OSS we're using there's some root source that most HN people would not be too happy about. And the flip side is also true too. I often hear people complaining about how they don't want to pay for apps and expect things to come for free. This REALLY screws over a lot of ISVs that are literally just trying to build cool apps. This is really a tragedy of the commons that we don't address very often. Most billionaires have figured out some way to exploit this issue - much to our collective disadvantage.

tybit 8y ago
Just because Mozilla and Google are both predominantly funded by ads doesn’t make them equivalent. It’s not naïveté that leads OSS supporters to believe that, it’s a focus on multiple factors, money is an important factor but it’s not everything. There’s a reason Linux has been so successful even when Microsoft was vehemently against it with incomparable funds.
paulstovell 8y ago
So much this! At first the huge corporations saw OSS as a threat. Their model had been to spend money building software, then charge people for that software. Competing with $0 software scared them and caught them off guard. Now the corporations and VCs figured out how to use OSS as a weapon. And it’s a deadly one! The developer insistence on everything being open source means that it’s very easy for a large corporation to destroy a whole lot of ISVs by just releasing an OSS equivalent. VCs know this too. OSS is used as a PR tool. Projects like React and Angular go a long way to making the parent companies look developer-friendly, even though many developers would normally consider those company’s missions against their values. OSS is also a powerful way for corporations to commodotise their complements. You see this with the cloud vendors jumping behind Kubernetes to ensure Docker wouldn’t be the next Oracle. Developers expect everything to be free and open source. We’ll end up in a world where the only programming jobs left will be at the corporations who weaponise OSS the best.
- delfinom 8y ago
  >Developers expect everything to be free and open source. Considering that before "OSS" was big as it is now, many companies would refuse to fix their proprietary shit even if we were paying, fuck them. Even now the proprietary software I have to integrate is often basement level outsourced to 200 consultants trash. If anything, open source filters companies out those that are at least proud of showing their work.
nickpsecurity 8y ago
"But where does Firefox get its money from? Google. Google gets its money from ads." That's so overly simplistic. Google tries to spy on everything you do. Mozilla limits their ad revenue to an activity where people are actually looking for something by giving info to a third-party, surveillance (err search) service. They also let you easily change it with a private one built in. They're also owned by a foundation aimed at doing good vs a publicly-traded company that seems to get more evil over time. So, using and investing in Firefox exposes you to less risk, creates less evil in short/long term, and possibly does more social good. It's an objectively better choice for folks concerned about surveillance-based businesses.
lmm 8y ago
> I seem HN geeks (saying that in a good way) say how they want to use Firefox vs Chrome because Firefox is somehow less evil. > But where does Firefox get its money from? Google. Google gets its money from ads. > If you track down the source of all the OSS we're using there's some root source that most HN people would not be too happy about. I use Konqueror, most of whose money comes from EU grants. I consider that a better source, and (not coincidentally IMO) it seems to result in a higher-quality codebase and a nicer program. Who do you think pays for Debian? More generally it seems like while most US projects are corporate-funded, this isn't true for European OSS. A lot of OSS originates in (usually publicly-funded) academic projects and/or direct volunteering. Of course, those projects don't have the advertising budgets of corporation-in-all-but-name style OSS.

tybit 8y ago

Just because Mozilla and Google are both predominantly funded by ads doesn’t make them equivalent. It’s not naïveté that leads OSS supporters to believe that, it’s a focus on multiple factors, money is an important factor but it’s not everything. There’s a reason Linux has been so successful even when Microsoft was vehemently against it with incomparable funds.

paulstovell 8y ago

So much this! At first the huge corporations saw OSS as a threat. Their model had been to spend money building software, then charge people for that software. Competing with $0 software scared them and caught them off guard. Now the corporations and VCs figured out how to use OSS as a weapon. And it’s a deadly one! The developer insistence on everything being open source means that it’s very easy for a large corporation to destroy a whole lot of ISVs by just releasing an OSS equivalent. VCs know this too. OSS is used as a PR tool. Projects like React and Angular go a long way to making the parent companies look developer-friendly, even though many developers would normally consider those company’s missions against their values. OSS is also a powerful way for corporations to commodotise their complements. You see this with the cloud vendors jumping behind Kubernetes to ensure Docker wouldn’t be the next Oracle. Developers expect everything to be free and open source. We’ll end up in a world where the only programming jobs left will be at the corporations who weaponise OSS the best.

delfinom 8y ago
>Developers expect everything to be free and open source. Considering that before "OSS" was big as it is now, many companies would refuse to fix their proprietary shit even if we were paying, fuck them. Even now the proprietary software I have to integrate is often basement level outsourced to 200 consultants trash. If anything, open source filters companies out those that are at least proud of showing their work.

nickpsecurity 8y ago

"But where does Firefox get its money from? Google. Google gets its money from ads." That's so overly simplistic. Google tries to spy on everything you do. Mozilla limits their ad revenue to an activity where people are actually looking for something by giving info to a third-party, surveillance (err search) service. They also let you easily change it with a private one built in. They're also owned by a foundation aimed at doing good vs a publicly-traded company that seems to get more evil over time. So, using and investing in Firefox exposes you to less risk, creates less evil in short/long term, and possibly does more social good. It's an objectively better choice for folks concerned about surveillance-based businesses.

lmm 8y ago

> I seem HN geeks (saying that in a good way) say how they want to use Firefox vs Chrome because Firefox is somehow less evil. > But where does Firefox get its money from? Google. Google gets its money from ads. > If you track down the source of all the OSS we're using there's some root source that most HN people would not be too happy about. I use Konqueror, most of whose money comes from EU grants. I consider that a better source, and (not coincidentally IMO) it seems to result in a higher-quality codebase and a nicer program. Who do you think pays for Debian? More generally it seems like while most US projects are corporate-funded, this isn't true for European OSS. A lot of OSS originates in (usually publicly-funded) academic projects and/or direct volunteering. Of course, those projects don't have the advertising budgets of corporation-in-all-but-name style OSS.