10 ms·

You ignore the non-union organizations that also protect their own. ABA, AMA, etc. control the supply of doctors/lawyers and accomplish the same end result as u

You ignore the non-union organizations that also protect their own. ABA, AMA, etc. control the supply of doctors/lawyers and accomplish the same end result as unions: higher wages and less competition.

scarejunba 8y ago
This is the thing. I'm never going to be stopped from working with a guy who wants me to work with him simply because some moron in an ivory tower thinks I don't have the credentials. This is good. I won't accept the alternative.
- kerng 8y ago
  The way quality assurance works in software engineering is way below any other industry - so I wouldn't be surprised if at one point some base qualifications are needed, much like a doctor, architect, nurse or teacher...
  - scarejunba 8y ago
    Oh I'm of the opinion that it will happen. But I aim to delay it as long as possible until my career ends. After that y'all can turn into a super-IBM. Be my guest.
- ionised 8y ago
  Imagine that sentence coming from a wannabe doctor or civil engineer.
  - scarejunba 8y ago
    I don't build things that will kill people if they're wrong. If I get this slightly wrong, the wrong people will be advertised the wrong car. The world won't end.
    - Apocryphon 8y ago
      There's a new story about passwords getting hacked and leaked every month, if not every week. This industry needs stronger standards, and if the industry doesn't come up with it ourselves, the law will.
      - scarejunba 8y ago
        I don't hold people's data like that. I don't need your law. I don't need your regulation. Always with the slowing down of development. Ugh.
        ionised 8y ago
        Doesn't matter that you don't want law or regulation. You'll get them regardless.
        Apocryphon 8y ago
        Don't complain to me, complain to all of the Facebooks that resell data to third parties, and all of the Googles who store that so that the NSA can tap into it, and all of the Equifaxes that leak all the data so the criminals can make use of it.
stale2002 8y ago
But that's horrible. I don't want to throw up barriers to entry, in order to keep out new comers. There are many great engineers that I know who would have been barred from the industry, if we had anything at all similar to the barriers to entry in the medical or "real" engineering industries. It is because of this that if there is ever a software union, I am going choose "defect" every single time. I am not going to let these new-comers, that I know, be barred from the amazing jobs in tech, just because they didn't get a degree or pass a test or whatever.
- kerng 8y ago
  When it comes to development and security engineering a certain demonstrated base qualification might not be a bad thing. It's pretty unbelieveable how quality is handled in software engineering...
  - phamilton 8y ago
    When I think about self driving cars I can't help but think about the Therac-25. Software bugs kill people. Not all software bugs, and not all software, but the lines are getting blurrier. It's not just medical equipment. Phones explode. A connected coffeepot could burn a house down. The Toyota acceleration bug (where cars would accelerate uncontrollably) was preventable if industry standards were followed. These aren't things you'll find in a Martin Fowler book, there are specific best practices for reliable embedded systems. Something needs to improve on this front.
    - stale2002 8y ago
      If you want to say that people working in self driving cars should have to pass qualification tests or whatever, I don't care about that. That is a small amount of people though. The vast majority of people are not working on anything at all to do with self driving cars or medical equipment or space X. Instead, what I care about preventing, and will fight extremely hard to stop, is barriers to entry for the most common software out there. This most common job being the web developer. We do. It need Industry standards in order to stop people from making website or apps. If a button doesn't work, in some dumb app, it does not matter. At all. You might come up with some weird edge case, but we both know that whatever example you come up with is going to be the exception, and not the rule. The reality is that for the vast majority of software engineering jobs out there, the stakes and consequence of failure are very low.
rhizome 8y ago
Those are more like guilds than unions.
- icebraining 8y ago
  What's the difference?
  - sangnoir 8y ago
    "Presentation!" as Megamind would say. The only difference is the color of the collar (and a whiff of classism).
  - rhizome 8y ago
    AIUI, unions represent employees, guilds represent independent members of a profession or vocation. Said another way, neither the AMA nor ABA negotiates compensation for their members.
- C1sc0cat 8y ago
  Historically that's what guilds did.
TomMckenny 8y ago
There need be no credentialing or collusion or universal contract requirements or wage demands. Credentialing/licensing would be particularly ridiculous. A tiny organization with just a lawyer, phone and a website to share info would likely be completely adequate. After all, we are not a group as vulnerable to abuse as coal miners etc. And kudos to Google for doing the right thing.
toomuchtodo 8y ago
Most unions and guilds do this. I don’t find it unreasonable, and would still sign on to a technology workers union, dues and all. Credentialing? I’d be okay with that, otherwise if everyone can “be an engineer” just by saying so, no one is (and credentialing would be superior to the white board gauntlet mess tech interviews currently are). Collective action is the only way to improve working conditions and dissuade abusive employer practices.
- Frost1x 8y ago
  With the current hiring process mess I'm a strong proponent of more universal credentials. I would happily pay and test through some licensing option once than invest similar time for some of the current interview processes at each company. My time is more important than playing continual ambiguious and inaccurate qualification games.
- icebraining 8y ago
  And this shows exactly why many oppose unions in the tech industry, despite the incredulity of union supporters: they make it easier to impose rules which many of us profoundly disagree with.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]

scarejunba 8y ago

This is the thing. I'm never going to be stopped from working with a guy who wants me to work with him simply because some moron in an ivory tower thinks I don't have the credentials. This is good. I won't accept the alternative.

kerng 8y ago
The way quality assurance works in software engineering is way below any other industry - so I wouldn't be surprised if at one point some base qualifications are needed, much like a doctor, architect, nurse or teacher...
- scarejunba 8y ago
  Oh I'm of the opinion that it will happen. But I aim to delay it as long as possible until my career ends. After that y'all can turn into a super-IBM. Be my guest.
ionised 8y ago
Imagine that sentence coming from a wannabe doctor or civil engineer.
- scarejunba 8y ago
  I don't build things that will kill people if they're wrong. If I get this slightly wrong, the wrong people will be advertised the wrong car. The world won't end.
  - Apocryphon 8y ago
    There's a new story about passwords getting hacked and leaked every month, if not every week. This industry needs stronger standards, and if the industry doesn't come up with it ourselves, the law will.
    - scarejunba 8y ago
      I don't hold people's data like that. I don't need your law. I don't need your regulation. Always with the slowing down of development. Ugh.
      - ionised 8y ago
        Doesn't matter that you don't want law or regulation. You'll get them regardless.
      - Apocryphon 8y ago
        Don't complain to me, complain to all of the Facebooks that resell data to third parties, and all of the Googles who store that so that the NSA can tap into it, and all of the Equifaxes that leak all the data so the criminals can make use of it.

stale2002 8y ago

But that's horrible. I don't want to throw up barriers to entry, in order to keep out new comers. There are many great engineers that I know who would have been barred from the industry, if we had anything at all similar to the barriers to entry in the medical or "real" engineering industries. It is because of this that if there is ever a software union, I am going choose "defect" every single time. I am not going to let these new-comers, that I know, be barred from the amazing jobs in tech, just because they didn't get a degree or pass a test or whatever.

kerng 8y ago
When it comes to development and security engineering a certain demonstrated base qualification might not be a bad thing. It's pretty unbelieveable how quality is handled in software engineering...
- phamilton 8y ago
  When I think about self driving cars I can't help but think about the Therac-25. Software bugs kill people. Not all software bugs, and not all software, but the lines are getting blurrier. It's not just medical equipment. Phones explode. A connected coffeepot could burn a house down. The Toyota acceleration bug (where cars would accelerate uncontrollably) was preventable if industry standards were followed. These aren't things you'll find in a Martin Fowler book, there are specific best practices for reliable embedded systems. Something needs to improve on this front.
  - stale2002 8y ago
    If you want to say that people working in self driving cars should have to pass qualification tests or whatever, I don't care about that. That is a small amount of people though. The vast majority of people are not working on anything at all to do with self driving cars or medical equipment or space X. Instead, what I care about preventing, and will fight extremely hard to stop, is barriers to entry for the most common software out there. This most common job being the web developer. We do. It need Industry standards in order to stop people from making website or apps. If a button doesn't work, in some dumb app, it does not matter. At all. You might come up with some weird edge case, but we both know that whatever example you come up with is going to be the exception, and not the rule. The reality is that for the vast majority of software engineering jobs out there, the stakes and consequence of failure are very low.

rhizome 8y ago

Those are more like guilds than unions.

icebraining 8y ago
What's the difference?
- sangnoir 8y ago
  "Presentation!" as Megamind would say. The only difference is the color of the collar (and a whiff of classism).
- rhizome 8y ago
  AIUI, unions represent employees, guilds represent independent members of a profession or vocation. Said another way, neither the AMA nor ABA negotiates compensation for their members.
C1sc0cat 8y ago
Historically that's what guilds did.

TomMckenny 8y ago

There need be no credentialing or collusion or universal contract requirements or wage demands. Credentialing/licensing would be particularly ridiculous. A tiny organization with just a lawyer, phone and a website to share info would likely be completely adequate. After all, we are not a group as vulnerable to abuse as coal miners etc. And kudos to Google for doing the right thing.

toomuchtodo 8y ago

Most unions and guilds do this. I don’t find it unreasonable, and would still sign on to a technology workers union, dues and all. Credentialing? I’d be okay with that, otherwise if everyone can “be an engineer” just by saying so, no one is (and credentialing would be superior to the white board gauntlet mess tech interviews currently are). Collective action is the only way to improve working conditions and dissuade abusive employer practices.

Frost1x 8y ago
With the current hiring process mess I'm a strong proponent of more universal credentials. I would happily pay and test through some licensing option once than invest similar time for some of the current interview processes at each company. My time is more important than playing continual ambiguious and inaccurate qualification games.
icebraining 8y ago
And this shows exactly why many oppose unions in the tech industry, despite the incredulity of union supporters: they make it easier to impose rules which many of us profoundly disagree with.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]