6 ms·

Discrimination would be saying “I’m making you work this weekend because it’s a religious holiday for you”. Saying “I don’t care about your religion and persona

by akerl_ 8y ago

Discrimination would be saying “I’m making you work this weekend because it’s a religious holiday for you”. Saying “I don’t care about your religion and personal circumstances, I demand you work or ill fire you” isn’t discriminating, it’s just shitty.

reaperducer 8y ago
Neither of us are lawyers, but it's my understanding that the law is that an employer must made accommodation for religious services. Several people my wife works with are deliberately scheduled around their weekly religious obligations. Perhaps an actual lawyer on HN can chime in, or post a helpful link.
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > Neither of us are lawyers, but it's my understanding that the law is that an employer must made accommodation for religious services. Employers must, on request, make reasonable accommodation (one which does not impose an “undue hardship”) for religious practices. [0] Nothing in the narrative provided (which comes from the lawsuit filed by the fired manager) seems to indicate that an advance request for an accommodation was made. An employer can fire you for failing to perform job duties due to a religious observance for which you did not ask for an accommodation, as I understand it. [0] https://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/newsroom/wysk/workplace_religious_accommodation.cfm https://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/newsroom/wysk/workplace_religious_...
Aloha 8y ago
No, discrimination isnt just changing the norms for an employee because its a religious holiday, its about not respecting that employees right to worship as their religion calls them to.
- elgenie 8y ago
  Reasonable accommodations can be made, but if availability during those times is a core job duty (known beforehand), then the firing is eminently justified. If your religion says you can't handle pork and you take a job at a pig slaughterhouse, the employer should not be obliged to pay you to do nothing.
  - alehul 8y ago
    This is true, but as you just said: it has to be a core job duty made clear before hiring. I highly doubt that Yelp would tell candidates "you cannot have a single day without checking your email." There may be some implicit "this is a startup, so work hard" mentality, but that won't hold up in a court of law.
    - dragonwriter 8y ago
      > There may be some implicit "this is a startup, so work hard" mentality Yelp isn't really a startup by any reasonable standard.
  - Aloha 8y ago
    I dont think 24/7/365 however is a reasonable thing to demand
    - elgenie 8y ago
      Sure, but you can't sue over that unless that wasn't demanded of people with other beliefs, which doesn't appear to be the case.
      - ineedasername 8y ago
        Sure you can: it's not a defense to say "but we discriminate against everyone"
        elgenie 8y ago
        It is. "Discriminate against everyone" is oxymoronic.
        landryraccoon 8y ago
        Religion, like sex, is a protected class. By your argument you could tell a pregnant woman “sorry, you have to work, all the men have to keep working.” Regardless of what you personally believe that’s likely a losing case in a lawsuit.
patio11 8y ago
While I get why that distinction sounds like it matters on a message board, for all of the HNers that will be in a position to hire and fire people: if you make a practice of mentioning holidays when firing people, your lawyers will make a practice of settling lawsuits on unfavorable-to-you terms.
- akerl_ 8y ago
  I don’t disagree: it’s a dumb thing for an employer to say exactly because it leads to suits like this.
- doktrin 8y ago
  This. If these emails were sent as described, the terminated employee can expect a tidy settlement with the quickness.
  - dba7dba 8y ago
    Maybe the management/managers have been getting away with behaviors such as these for so long that they forgot sending such emails to terminated employee is a bad/expensive idea. Either way, whether religion is involved or not, discriminating or not, from what I've seen so far, Yelp needs to pay. Just so that it can be a lesson to others.
harimau777 8y ago
It seems to me that would be basically the same as an employer saying "We don't discriminate against your religion, we just won't allow you to practice it". If that's the case then protection from religious discrimination has no meaning.
- mannykannot 8y ago
  This is exactly to the point. The post to which you are replying is an example of a sort of argument that is not uncommon: it is formally correct, but it completely ignores the subtleties of human interaction.
ineedasername 8y ago
It's discrimination if the guy was fired in part for missing work on that day.
chapium 8y ago
If I was in that position I'd fail to see a distinction.
landryraccoon 8y ago
If my employer ever fired me for not working on a holiday I hope they email to say “I don’t care about your religion, I demand you work or I’ll fire you.” My lawyer would probably salivate at that. I’m pretty sure the law says the opposite of what you’re claiming - that’s blatantly admitting you won’t make a reasonable religious accommodation.

by akerl_ 8y ago

reaperducer 8y ago

Neither of us are lawyers, but it's my understanding that the law is that an employer must made accommodation for religious services. Several people my wife works with are deliberately scheduled around their weekly religious obligations. Perhaps an actual lawyer on HN can chime in, or post a helpful link.

dragonwriter 8y ago
> Neither of us are lawyers, but it's my understanding that the law is that an employer must made accommodation for religious services. Employers must, on request, make reasonable accommodation (one which does not impose an “undue hardship”) for religious practices. [0] Nothing in the narrative provided (which comes from the lawsuit filed by the fired manager) seems to indicate that an advance request for an accommodation was made. An employer can fire you for failing to perform job duties due to a religious observance for which you did not ask for an accommodation, as I understand it. [0] https://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/newsroom/wysk/workplace_religious_accommodation.cfm https://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/newsroom/wysk/workplace_religious_...

Aloha 8y ago

No, discrimination isnt just changing the norms for an employee because its a religious holiday, its about not respecting that employees right to worship as their religion calls them to.

elgenie 8y ago
Reasonable accommodations can be made, but if availability during those times is a core job duty (known beforehand), then the firing is eminently justified. If your religion says you can't handle pork and you take a job at a pig slaughterhouse, the employer should not be obliged to pay you to do nothing.
- alehul 8y ago
  This is true, but as you just said: it has to be a core job duty made clear before hiring. I highly doubt that Yelp would tell candidates "you cannot have a single day without checking your email." There may be some implicit "this is a startup, so work hard" mentality, but that won't hold up in a court of law.
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    > There may be some implicit "this is a startup, so work hard" mentality Yelp isn't really a startup by any reasonable standard.
- Aloha 8y ago
  I dont think 24/7/365 however is a reasonable thing to demand
  - elgenie 8y ago
    Sure, but you can't sue over that unless that wasn't demanded of people with other beliefs, which doesn't appear to be the case.
    - ineedasername 8y ago
      Sure you can: it's not a defense to say "but we discriminate against everyone"
      - elgenie 8y ago
        It is. "Discriminate against everyone" is oxymoronic.
        landryraccoon 8y ago
        Religion, like sex, is a protected class. By your argument you could tell a pregnant woman “sorry, you have to work, all the men have to keep working.” Regardless of what you personally believe that’s likely a losing case in a lawsuit.

patio11 8y ago

While I get why that distinction sounds like it matters on a message board, for all of the HNers that will be in a position to hire and fire people: if you make a practice of mentioning holidays when firing people, your lawyers will make a practice of settling lawsuits on unfavorable-to-you terms.

akerl_ 8y ago
I don’t disagree: it’s a dumb thing for an employer to say exactly because it leads to suits like this.
doktrin 8y ago
This. If these emails were sent as described, the terminated employee can expect a tidy settlement with the quickness.
- dba7dba 8y ago
  Maybe the management/managers have been getting away with behaviors such as these for so long that they forgot sending such emails to terminated employee is a bad/expensive idea. Either way, whether religion is involved or not, discriminating or not, from what I've seen so far, Yelp needs to pay. Just so that it can be a lesson to others.

harimau777 8y ago

It seems to me that would be basically the same as an employer saying "We don't discriminate against your religion, we just won't allow you to practice it". If that's the case then protection from religious discrimination has no meaning.

mannykannot 8y ago
This is exactly to the point. The post to which you are replying is an example of a sort of argument that is not uncommon: it is formally correct, but it completely ignores the subtleties of human interaction.

ineedasername 8y ago

It's discrimination if the guy was fired in part for missing work on that day.

chapium 8y ago

If I was in that position I'd fail to see a distinction.

landryraccoon 8y ago

If my employer ever fired me for not working on a holiday I hope they email to say “I don’t care about your religion, I demand you work or I’ll fire you.” My lawyer would probably salivate at that. I’m pretty sure the law says the opposite of what you’re claiming - that’s blatantly admitting you won’t make a reasonable religious accommodation.