5 ms·

Unions and their actions are collective employee action, I'm not sure what you're saying won't work?

ergothus 8y ago
I'm not saying unions won't work...I'm saying they weren't involved in this case. This case doesn't look particularly repeatable WITHOUT unions.
- perfmode 8y ago
  Why doesn't it look repeatable?
  - ergothus 8y ago
    Rephrasing from my original comment: Because Google worried about a very supply-limited audience (tech workers, including related non-programmers). Most fields, the ones paying their employees far less and with far fewer perks, don't share that restraint. If these other fields had their current crop of (non-unionized) workers get disgusted, the companies would just get different employees. There's no shortage of companies with various abusive practices that remain in business. Arbitration agreements, micro-management, strict controls over things as simple as bathroom breaks, even riding the line on wage-theft. I'm very glad to see this particular change, but to say "Google's programmers demanded change and got it, why don't you get with it, un-unionized cashiers at S-Mart!" overestimates the influence of those workers.
    - kodablah 8y ago
      So, would you say it is particularly repeatable in this industry? I.e. that while those other industries need unions due to lack of leverage, this one may be different? (of course one instance is too small of a sample size to support either direction on its own)
      - ergothus 8y ago
        I'm hardly qualified to have anything but the most grossly informed of opinions, but yeah, I'd expect that in the current environment most tech-area (i.e. Seattle, SF, etc) devs can and should demand improvements and be able to get them without requiring unions (which is not the same as saying unions aren't needed. Look to games dev for examples).
- kelnos 8y ago
  I think that was the point. The original parent was making a tongue-in-cheek reference to how tech workers seem to resist the idea of forming a union, but occasionally band together to do union-like things informally, in an ad-hoc, not-particularly-reliable fashion.
  - kodablah 8y ago
    I read it as "see, didn't require forming a union to get something done in the tech industry"
    - sudhirj 8y ago
      Do unions allow competition among union members? It’s always seemed to me that they work in jobs where the people are replaceable. In Google one could work to make 2x to 3x more than the next person - is that will possible with a union? Seems like in jobs where individual talent / skills matter, a union is by definition harmful (unless you’re in the lower 50%). Collective action / protest works fine, though, for establishing baselines. If giving employees what they want is cheaper than firing all of them and hiring a fresh batch, it should always work fine.
      - PierceJoy 8y ago
        > Seems like in jobs where individual talent / skills matter, a union is by definition harmful (unless you’re in the lower 50%). Professional athlete unions would be a counterexample, I believe. It really depends on how the union is structured. I doubt a union for high paid tech workers would be structured the same way as one for blue collar labourers.
        lugg 8y ago
        That is a pretty naive view of our industry. Personally I find us far more alike other industries than unlike. We're a new industry but we're still full of people of all types sizes and emotional colours.
      - 8y ago
- SolaceQuantum 8y ago
  From what I recall unions were involved in this case. Organizers of the mass protests explicitly cited receiving the advisement of union activists.

I'm not saying unions won't work...I'm saying they weren't involved in this case. This case doesn't look particularly repeatable WITHOUT unions.

perfmode 8y ago
Why doesn't it look repeatable?
- ergothus 8y ago
  Rephrasing from my original comment: Because Google worried about a very supply-limited audience (tech workers, including related non-programmers). Most fields, the ones paying their employees far less and with far fewer perks, don't share that restraint. If these other fields had their current crop of (non-unionized) workers get disgusted, the companies would just get different employees. There's no shortage of companies with various abusive practices that remain in business. Arbitration agreements, micro-management, strict controls over things as simple as bathroom breaks, even riding the line on wage-theft. I'm very glad to see this particular change, but to say "Google's programmers demanded change and got it, why don't you get with it, un-unionized cashiers at S-Mart!" overestimates the influence of those workers.
  - kodablah 8y ago
    So, would you say it is particularly repeatable in this industry? I.e. that while those other industries need unions due to lack of leverage, this one may be different? (of course one instance is too small of a sample size to support either direction on its own)
    - ergothus 8y ago
      I'm hardly qualified to have anything but the most grossly informed of opinions, but yeah, I'd expect that in the current environment most tech-area (i.e. Seattle, SF, etc) devs can and should demand improvements and be able to get them without requiring unions (which is not the same as saying unions aren't needed. Look to games dev for examples).
kelnos 8y ago
I think that was the point. The original parent was making a tongue-in-cheek reference to how tech workers seem to resist the idea of forming a union, but occasionally band together to do union-like things informally, in an ad-hoc, not-particularly-reliable fashion.
- kodablah 8y ago
  I read it as "see, didn't require forming a union to get something done in the tech industry"
  - sudhirj 8y ago
    Do unions allow competition among union members? It’s always seemed to me that they work in jobs where the people are replaceable. In Google one could work to make 2x to 3x more than the next person - is that will possible with a union? Seems like in jobs where individual talent / skills matter, a union is by definition harmful (unless you’re in the lower 50%). Collective action / protest works fine, though, for establishing baselines. If giving employees what they want is cheaper than firing all of them and hiring a fresh batch, it should always work fine.
    - PierceJoy 8y ago
      > Seems like in jobs where individual talent / skills matter, a union is by definition harmful (unless you’re in the lower 50%). Professional athlete unions would be a counterexample, I believe. It really depends on how the union is structured. I doubt a union for high paid tech workers would be structured the same way as one for blue collar labourers.
      - lugg 8y ago
        That is a pretty naive view of our industry. Personally I find us far more alike other industries than unlike. We're a new industry but we're still full of people of all types sizes and emotional colours.
    - 8y ago
SolaceQuantum 8y ago
From what I recall unions were involved in this case. Organizers of the mass protests explicitly cited receiving the advisement of union activists.