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For me the librem 5 is to android what GNU Hurd is to linux. Why don't they do something more similar to what linux-libre is to linux to replace android rather

For me the librem 5 is to android what GNU Hurd is to linux. Why don't they do something more similar to what linux-libre is to linux to replace android rather than recreating the wheel. AFAIK, android is open source, so why don't they just build on top of it while removing all non-free code/binary blobs from it.

ocdtrekkie 8y ago
Android is a bad operating system, for one. Second, it isn't, by any measure, a free one. Google has an iron grip over Android, OEMs are forbidden to produce phones that fork it, and most apps for Android won't run without Google's proprietary components. Trying to build on Android is constantly following and fighting Google's changes. Purism is building on Linux, which is truly free from top to bottom.
- MYEUHD 8y ago
  > OEMs are forbidden to produce phones that fork it Actually, OEMs are allowed to produce phones that fork it but they're forbidden from including gapps ( the google apps suit e.g play store, maps) >most apps for Android won't run without Google's proprietary components This isn't the case if you only use free software e.g. most of the apps on the fdroid main repo
  - Brakenshire 8y ago
    They’re not allowed to use GApps on any of their devices if they ship a fork on one device, I thought. That’s a massive barrier.
  - ocdtrekkie 8y ago
    This isn't true. OEMs have been forbidden from publishing "incompatible forks" of Android. Incompatible being: Not having Google's apps, which are required to pass the CTS. This is one of the reasons the EU levied it's record-breaking fine against Google for anticompetitive behavior. (It's likely EU MADA contracts have been revised to remove this requirement, but I wouldn't be surprised if they still enforce it elsewhere.) F-Droid has a very tiny portion of apps, similar to as many as Purism itself will likely handle using it's own Linux-based system with an app store. Most common apps people expect require Google services on Android, as Google has let the open APIs languish and pushed everyone to use, for instance, Google Location Services, which is proprietary. Apps like Uber or Lyft, for instance, require Google. Hilariously, a lot of Microsoft's apps, such as Skype, require Google, despite being a competitor. As long as Android's app library is primarily built on Google proprietary code, there's no point in bothering to maintain compatibility with a slow and sluggish, locked down Java-based OS.
    - ascii_only 8y ago
      >This isn't true. OEMs have been forbidden from publishing "incompatible forks" of Android. From top of my head. Kindle fire, yandex.phone and most of phones for chinese market dont have gapps. Google didn't allow to ship devices with gapps and without at the same time. You had to choose one or another.
      - hadrien01 8y ago
        HTC or Samsung aren't allowed to manufacture Kindle Fire devices per their Google contract
    - tmalsburg2 8y ago
      > This isn't true. OEMs have been forbidden from publishing "incompatible forks" of Android. Incompatible being: Not having Google's apps, which are required to pass the CTS. I'm writing this message on a Fairphone 2 running an incompatible fork of Android that has all Google services removed. This fork is provided by the manufacturer of the phone.
      - cerberusss 8y ago
        Talking about the Fairphone, is there any news whatsoever about the Fairphone 3?
        Vinnl 8y ago
        No, I think they're still mainly focused on the 2. The latest announcement was [1]: > So, we’re excited to announce that nearly three years after the introduction of the Fairphone 2, we’re not releasing a new model just yet. Instead, we’re aiming to extend the life cycle of the phone as much as we can. [1] https://www.fairphone.com/en/2018/05/08/keeping-your-phone-longer-refreshed/ https://www.fairphone.com/en/2018/05/08/keeping-your-phone-l...
      - Vinnl 8y ago
        That's not an incompatible fork; that's just AOSP with a few apps preinstalled. Likewise vendors like Samsung are able to add their own interfaces on top of Android, but that wouldn't do for Purism.
  - walrus01 8y ago
    > Actually, OEMs are allowed to produce phones that fork it but they're forbidden from including gapps ( the google apps suit e.g play store, maps) how do you account for pretty much every chinese domestic version of android, which doesn't use google services or the play store, because they're blocked by the GFW? For instance the Chinese version of OnePlus' oxygenOS uses the domestic app stores.
    - ocdtrekkie 8y ago
      Simple: Google isn't really worried about non-Google phones being sold in China, because they don't operate there. I expect this would change if Google did manage to re-enter the Chinese market.
- jayd16 8y ago
  None of this really addresses the question. Despite all this, its still a better option than starting from scratch with no hardware.
  - ocdtrekkie 8y ago
    The problem is it's "not a better option", because the outcome is poorer. There are plenty of people offering hacked up versions of Android you can put on Android hardware. If you want that, it exists. Purism is aiming higher, and creating something we need to replace Android, not just leech off of it.
meruru 8y ago
There's already Replicant, Lineage, Copperhead, etc. The thing you're asking for has existed for a long time.
- Brakenshire 8y ago
  Yes, the problem is there is a lack of proper hardware integration. Cameras in particular don’t work well.
  - meruru 8y ago
    I use Lineage on a supported device and everything seems to work perfectly. My camera is blacktaped, but it did work fine when I tested once.
xingped 8y ago
Variety is a good thing. Even if the alternative created isn't strictly better, it can brings new ideas to table and push innovation forward with alternative approaches. I'm happy they're creating an alternative OS to Android and hope that it really takes off. Even if it is never strictly better than Android, it at least gives us options. This is almost an exact parallel to the browser industry. I think most of us techies are in the boat that the existence of Firefox as a separate browser rendering engine from Chrome is a good thing for similar reasons, regardless of which can be argued to be functionally better.
MYEUHD 8y ago
>For me the librem 5 is to android what GNU Hurd is to linux I'm assuming you're talking about pureos, the default OS shipped with librem 5 They're not reinventing the wheel, it's a debian-based distro that has existed for quite some time and that is endorsed by the FSF If I'm not mistaken, purism made the OS specifically for their laptop lineup >Why don't they do something more similar to what linux-libre is to linux to replace android This project already exists, it is called Replicant[0] >AFAIK, android is open source, so why don't they just build on top of it There are many, many custom ROMs that do exactly that. But this doesn't hide the fact that android has severe problems like requiring huge system resources to build it (>100GB of disk space, 16GB of RAM etc.) Besides Google is working on another OS called fuchsia that's supposedly going to replace both android and chromeOS and it's not based on the Linux kernel thus it's better for the sake of choice to have some linux-based alternatives. The librem 5 isn't the first or the only effort to get non-android linux on smartphones, there's also most notably PostmarketOS[1] For more arguments on why android sucks compared to other linux-based alternatives, check out https://postmarketos.org/static/slides/2018-akademy/#18 https://postmarketos.org/static/slides/2018-akademy/#18 [0]: https://replicant.us/ https://replicant.us/ [1]: https://postmarketos.org/ https://postmarketos.org/
seba_dos1 8y ago
That would make it completely uninteresting for me. I can already run Replicant on GTA04.

ocdtrekkie 8y ago

Android is a bad operating system, for one. Second, it isn't, by any measure, a free one. Google has an iron grip over Android, OEMs are forbidden to produce phones that fork it, and most apps for Android won't run without Google's proprietary components. Trying to build on Android is constantly following and fighting Google's changes. Purism is building on Linux, which is truly free from top to bottom.

MYEUHD 8y ago
> OEMs are forbidden to produce phones that fork it Actually, OEMs are allowed to produce phones that fork it but they're forbidden from including gapps ( the google apps suit e.g play store, maps) >most apps for Android won't run without Google's proprietary components This isn't the case if you only use free software e.g. most of the apps on the fdroid main repo
- Brakenshire 8y ago
  They’re not allowed to use GApps on any of their devices if they ship a fork on one device, I thought. That’s a massive barrier.
- ocdtrekkie 8y ago
  This isn't true. OEMs have been forbidden from publishing "incompatible forks" of Android. Incompatible being: Not having Google's apps, which are required to pass the CTS. This is one of the reasons the EU levied it's record-breaking fine against Google for anticompetitive behavior. (It's likely EU MADA contracts have been revised to remove this requirement, but I wouldn't be surprised if they still enforce it elsewhere.) F-Droid has a very tiny portion of apps, similar to as many as Purism itself will likely handle using it's own Linux-based system with an app store. Most common apps people expect require Google services on Android, as Google has let the open APIs languish and pushed everyone to use, for instance, Google Location Services, which is proprietary. Apps like Uber or Lyft, for instance, require Google. Hilariously, a lot of Microsoft's apps, such as Skype, require Google, despite being a competitor. As long as Android's app library is primarily built on Google proprietary code, there's no point in bothering to maintain compatibility with a slow and sluggish, locked down Java-based OS.
  - ascii_only 8y ago
    >This isn't true. OEMs have been forbidden from publishing "incompatible forks" of Android. From top of my head. Kindle fire, yandex.phone and most of phones for chinese market dont have gapps. Google didn't allow to ship devices with gapps and without at the same time. You had to choose one or another.
    - hadrien01 8y ago
      HTC or Samsung aren't allowed to manufacture Kindle Fire devices per their Google contract
  - tmalsburg2 8y ago
    > This isn't true. OEMs have been forbidden from publishing "incompatible forks" of Android. Incompatible being: Not having Google's apps, which are required to pass the CTS. I'm writing this message on a Fairphone 2 running an incompatible fork of Android that has all Google services removed. This fork is provided by the manufacturer of the phone.
    - cerberusss 8y ago
      Talking about the Fairphone, is there any news whatsoever about the Fairphone 3?
      - Vinnl 8y ago
        No, I think they're still mainly focused on the 2. The latest announcement was [1]: > So, we’re excited to announce that nearly three years after the introduction of the Fairphone 2, we’re not releasing a new model just yet. Instead, we’re aiming to extend the life cycle of the phone as much as we can. [1] https://www.fairphone.com/en/2018/05/08/keeping-your-phone-longer-refreshed/ https://www.fairphone.com/en/2018/05/08/keeping-your-phone-l...
    - Vinnl 8y ago
      That's not an incompatible fork; that's just AOSP with a few apps preinstalled. Likewise vendors like Samsung are able to add their own interfaces on top of Android, but that wouldn't do for Purism.
- walrus01 8y ago
  > Actually, OEMs are allowed to produce phones that fork it but they're forbidden from including gapps ( the google apps suit e.g play store, maps) how do you account for pretty much every chinese domestic version of android, which doesn't use google services or the play store, because they're blocked by the GFW? For instance the Chinese version of OnePlus' oxygenOS uses the domestic app stores.
  - ocdtrekkie 8y ago
    Simple: Google isn't really worried about non-Google phones being sold in China, because they don't operate there. I expect this would change if Google did manage to re-enter the Chinese market.
jayd16 8y ago
None of this really addresses the question. Despite all this, its still a better option than starting from scratch with no hardware.
- ocdtrekkie 8y ago
  The problem is it's "not a better option", because the outcome is poorer. There are plenty of people offering hacked up versions of Android you can put on Android hardware. If you want that, it exists. Purism is aiming higher, and creating something we need to replace Android, not just leech off of it.

meruru 8y ago

There's already Replicant, Lineage, Copperhead, etc. The thing you're asking for has existed for a long time.

Brakenshire 8y ago
Yes, the problem is there is a lack of proper hardware integration. Cameras in particular don’t work well.
- meruru 8y ago
  I use Lineage on a supported device and everything seems to work perfectly. My camera is blacktaped, but it did work fine when I tested once.

xingped 8y ago

Variety is a good thing. Even if the alternative created isn't strictly better, it can brings new ideas to table and push innovation forward with alternative approaches. I'm happy they're creating an alternative OS to Android and hope that it really takes off. Even if it is never strictly better than Android, it at least gives us options. This is almost an exact parallel to the browser industry. I think most of us techies are in the boat that the existence of Firefox as a separate browser rendering engine from Chrome is a good thing for similar reasons, regardless of which can be argued to be functionally better.

MYEUHD 8y ago

>For me the librem 5 is to android what GNU Hurd is to linux I'm assuming you're talking about pureos, the default OS shipped with librem 5 They're not reinventing the wheel, it's a debian-based distro that has existed for quite some time and that is endorsed by the FSF If I'm not mistaken, purism made the OS specifically for their laptop lineup >Why don't they do something more similar to what linux-libre is to linux to replace android This project already exists, it is called Replicant[0] >AFAIK, android is open source, so why don't they just build on top of it There are many, many custom ROMs that do exactly that. But this doesn't hide the fact that android has severe problems like requiring huge system resources to build it (>100GB of disk space, 16GB of RAM etc.) Besides Google is working on another OS called fuchsia that's supposedly going to replace both android and chromeOS and it's not based on the Linux kernel thus it's better for the sake of choice to have some linux-based alternatives. The librem 5 isn't the first or the only effort to get non-android linux on smartphones, there's also most notably PostmarketOS[1] For more arguments on why android sucks compared to other linux-based alternatives, check out https://postmarketos.org/static/slides/2018-akademy/#18 https://postmarketos.org/static/slides/2018-akademy/#18 [0]: https://replicant.us/ https://replicant.us/ [1]: https://postmarketos.org/ https://postmarketos.org/

seba_dos1 8y ago

That would make it completely uninteresting for me. I can already run Replicant on GTA04.