4 ms·

It's nice that they have a python interface. I know everyone has a fetish for TeX/LaTeX, but isn't it time for something better? Don't get me wrong, TeX has pro

by mruts 8y ago

It's nice that they have a python interface. I know everyone has a fetish for TeX/LaTeX, but isn't it time for something better? Don't get me wrong, TeX has probably the best document rendering of anything I've ever come across, but the language itself is quite terrible. I get the impression that no one even knows how to use it anymore, and everyone is just copying and pasting code handed down from generations of professors and students. I understand the limitations and design decisions made at the time, but I think it's time for something new. Maybe just using TeX as a backend language would be acceptable, though I think it would just be preferable to start anew. I know there's Scribble but I don't think it handles equations.

taeric 8y ago
A problem with trying to replace TeX is that the only real problem with it is aesthetic of implementation language. And its main strength is its stability. Note, it is not that it renders documents well. While, I do appreciate that fact, the real strength is I am not constantly having to play gardener with all of the documents I've written. Any bitrot in my document will come from facts in it, not because this year's version decided that promises were better than callbacks. Or that "box-sizing: border-box" is the more natural way to do things. (Or yet another brand new construct to lay things out.) I think a lot of this stability can be traced directly to Knuth. He has a discipline that is basically unmatched. And it isn't like he hasn't had some misgivings about choices he has made. However, his main choice that he is willing to stick with is stability. And that is huge for long term use.
SiempreViernes 8y ago
Sure, just port the entire tex package ecosystem first would you? Tex isn't cumbersome enough to give up for anything less than feature parity with those.
- mruts 8y ago
  That's clearly a major impediment. But we've overcome network effects many times in the past: MySpace, the JVM, x86_64, etc etc. It's just that no one really cares, and there's probably no money to be made in the process. Using LaTeX is never more than a slight to moderate inconvenience, but it's still unpleasant.
  - 1024core 8y ago
    It's open source. Nothing's stopping you from doing what you want someone else to do.
xvilka 8y ago
LaTeX3[1][2] improves matters and LuaTeX[3] is getting more traction, so more and more parts get written in Lua and more stuff gets deprecated. What I don't really get why LuaTeX project is not very open and their source repository is not anonymously accessible. Would be so much better if they migrate ot GitHub or GitLab. [1] https://github.com/latex3/latex3 https://github.com/latex3/latex3 [2] https://www.latex-project.org/help/documentation/ltx3info.pdf https://www.latex-project.org/help/documentation/ltx3info.pd... [3] http://www.luatex.org/ http://www.luatex.org/
- svat 8y ago
  BTW the LuaTeX source isn't really hidden; there's an unofficial GitHub mirror at https://github.com/TeX-Live/luatex https://github.com/TeX-Live/luatex (or look at https://github.com/TeX-Live/texlive-source/tree/trunk/texk/web2c/luatexdir https://github.com/TeX-Live/texlive-source/tree/trunk/texk/w... specifically) and for their official SVN repository at https://serveur-svn.lri.fr/svn/modhel/luatex https://serveur-svn.lri.fr/svn/modhel/luatex the username/password (anonsvn/anonsvn) are listed in a few places (e.g. here: http://www.luatex.org/development.html http://www.luatex.org/development.html and in their mailing list announcements).
jimhefferon 8y ago
There are recent alternatives that seem pretty ambitious (I'll just mention https://www.tug.org/TUGboat/tb38-1/tb118cozens.pdf https://www.tug.org/TUGboat/tb38-1/tb118cozens.pdf as a proof of existence). That I can see, though, any system capable enough to do as much is just as complex. Would be interested in being proved wrong, though. As other people have mentioned, the LuaTeX folks have got a real good thing going. It is climbing the adoption curve but it makes reasonable some things that in the past have not really been reasonable to program (at least for me).

by mruts 8y ago

taeric 8y ago

A problem with trying to replace TeX is that the only real problem with it is aesthetic of implementation language. And its main strength is its stability. Note, it is not that it renders documents well. While, I do appreciate that fact, the real strength is I am not constantly having to play gardener with all of the documents I've written. Any bitrot in my document will come from facts in it, not because this year's version decided that promises were better than callbacks. Or that "box-sizing: border-box" is the more natural way to do things. (Or yet another brand new construct to lay things out.) I think a lot of this stability can be traced directly to Knuth. He has a discipline that is basically unmatched. And it isn't like he hasn't had some misgivings about choices he has made. However, his main choice that he is willing to stick with is stability. And that is huge for long term use.

SiempreViernes 8y ago

Sure, just port the entire tex package ecosystem first would you? Tex isn't cumbersome enough to give up for anything less than feature parity with those.

mruts 8y ago
That's clearly a major impediment. But we've overcome network effects many times in the past: MySpace, the JVM, x86_64, etc etc. It's just that no one really cares, and there's probably no money to be made in the process. Using LaTeX is never more than a slight to moderate inconvenience, but it's still unpleasant.
- 1024core 8y ago
  It's open source. Nothing's stopping you from doing what you want someone else to do.

xvilka 8y ago

LaTeX3[1][2] improves matters and LuaTeX[3] is getting more traction, so more and more parts get written in Lua and more stuff gets deprecated. What I don't really get why LuaTeX project is not very open and their source repository is not anonymously accessible. Would be so much better if they migrate ot GitHub or GitLab. [1] https://github.com/latex3/latex3 https://github.com/latex3/latex3 [2] https://www.latex-project.org/help/documentation/ltx3info.pdf https://www.latex-project.org/help/documentation/ltx3info.pd... [3] http://www.luatex.org/ http://www.luatex.org/

svat 8y ago
BTW the LuaTeX source isn't really hidden; there's an unofficial GitHub mirror at https://github.com/TeX-Live/luatex https://github.com/TeX-Live/luatex (or look at https://github.com/TeX-Live/texlive-source/tree/trunk/texk/web2c/luatexdir https://github.com/TeX-Live/texlive-source/tree/trunk/texk/w... specifically) and for their official SVN repository at https://serveur-svn.lri.fr/svn/modhel/luatex https://serveur-svn.lri.fr/svn/modhel/luatex the username/password (anonsvn/anonsvn) are listed in a few places (e.g. here: http://www.luatex.org/development.html http://www.luatex.org/development.html and in their mailing list announcements).

jimhefferon 8y ago

There are recent alternatives that seem pretty ambitious (I'll just mention https://www.tug.org/TUGboat/tb38-1/tb118cozens.pdf https://www.tug.org/TUGboat/tb38-1/tb118cozens.pdf as a proof of existence). That I can see, though, any system capable enough to do as much is just as complex. Would be interested in being proved wrong, though. As other people have mentioned, the LuaTeX folks have got a real good thing going. It is climbing the adoption curve but it makes reasonable some things that in the past have not really been reasonable to program (at least for me).