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Your model doesn't seem to include people who have zero interest in dialogue or persuasion and are willing to simply eliminate people they find disagreeable. I

Your model doesn't seem to include people who have zero interest in dialogue or persuasion and are willing to simply eliminate people they find disagreeable. I see this time and time again: Instead of engaging with dissenters, forums, groups of all kinds just evict people who are perfectly willing to talk. In principle, that's also acting to "simply eliminate people they find disagreeable." Often, it turns out that saying, "freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences," turns out to be a way to "find people who subscribe to eliminationist ideologies." They are not as bad, by any means. Instead of using bullets, they might use accusations and namecalling instead. In the past few years, people claiming to be on the Left have even used clubs, vandalism, and assault. At what point do you consider the listening process sufficient for conclusions to be drawn, or any other action to be taken? Certainly someone who reaches the level of Anders Breivik's extremism is beyond talking to. However, it's the height of arrogance and immorality to treat people who are perfectly willing to talk as if they are him. What I see so much of is the treatment of sincere questions as if they are such extremism. If all you do is gather data and you never analyze or act upon it, what use is it? What I see most of, is people not gathering data, not communicating, and eliminating first, asking questions never. "You are either with us, or against us." It stunk to high heaven when George W. Bush said it. It's just as coercive and authoritarian when such tactics are used by others today. (Worse, when it's used by people who are supposed to be against such things!) If you would fear the unreasonable who are beyond talking to, it behooves you to reach out to those perfectly willing to talk. In fact, I can confidently say that you can find plenty of common ground, if you look hard enough. In 2019, in the current climate, the easy, facile thing to do is to give into the outrage mongering, your personal information bubble, and the groupthink and othering of the other side.

bryanrasmussen 8y ago
Ok but if someone is just perfectly willing to talk about how Breivik is a hero and they wish more people would have the guts to do what he did it is of course not the same as actually doing what Breivik did but it seems sort of not worth talking to either, like if Breivik were the enemy of life they would be providing aid and comfort to the enemy without ever actually going out and shooting a bunch of people.
- stcredzero 8y ago
  People who will do violence in support of their political beliefs are in the wrong. People who support people who do violence should be questioned, regardless of where on the political spectrum they lie, or whether they are an "your side" or the "other." The people who are going around in masks, with clubs and guns committing assaults and other violent crimes need to be recognized as the terrorists and proto-terrorists they are. The media that preferentially cover one side over another, and people who give their tacit support to such things need to be called out as well. What disturbs me the most, are the people who are supposed to be peace-loving giving their tacit support to such political violence and intimidation. The remedy for violent extremist tendencies is to let people talk. It's when people feel like they can't talk, that they seek more extreme means.
  - anigbrowl 8y ago
    The people who are going around in masks, with clubs and guns committing assaults and other violent crimes need to be recognized as the terrorists and proto-terrorists they are. And my question to you is what you do about people like that. The remedy for violent extremist tendencies is to let people talk. It's when people feel like they can't talk, that they seek more extreme means. [Citation needed] There are lots of extremists who have little to no difficulty in getting their opinions off their chest and who continue to maintain or escalate their extremist views. You whole theory seems to be that people just need an opportunity to vent their feels and that will cause aggressive or atrocious feelings to subside. This may work great in therapeutic contexts but I'm not willing to accept that it holds true in the world at large. Look at all the people recruited by ISIS; why didn't they just vent their feelings and then go back to their everyday lives?
    - stcredzero 8y ago
      You whole theory seems to be that people just need an opportunity to vent their feels and that will cause aggressive or atrocious feelings to subside. No. However, not letting people speak will make it more likely that they will feel there are no other options for them. That's just common sense. If you take away an option, people feel they have one less option. This may work great in therapeutic contexts but I'm not willing to accept that it holds true in the world at large. You're conflating the therapeutic context with the societal context. Sure, therapy is probabilistic, with no guarantees for any given individual. Effectively, you have been straw-manning by conflating the two. In the US, we can vote. We have freedom of speech. This is a big reason why we can resolve differences and exchange power without violence. If you make people feel they only "technically" have freedom of speech, but not really, then they resort to violence. This is just history. Your conflating the therapeutic context feeds into a narrative your'e pushing about certain people being irredeemable. Certainly, certain individuals in a therapeutic context aren't going to be easily redeemable, if at all. That doesn't mean that entire groups or swathes of the political spectrum or cohorts of political populations should be treated as irredeemable. That way lies madness. The endpoint of that is either violence or camps. However, it is convenient to do such conflating, if one wants to tar a particular subgroup for political reasons. I don't speak up for extremists. I speak against extremists. There is a widespread manipulation across society and the media where mainstream/fairly centrist people are being tarred as extremists. This too is being prosecuted by extremists.
anigbrowl 8y ago
I see this time and time again: Instead of engaging with dissenters, forums, groups of all kinds just evict people who are perfectly willing to talk. In principle, that's also acting to "simply eliminate people they find disagreeable." Er...I was asking what you do about people who are willing or even enthusiastic about killing others, and I think this is qualitatively different from exclusionary behavior. 'Eliminationist' may not be the most semantically optimal term but it's the prevailing one to describe ideologies that accommodate or promote things like mass murder or genocide. Certainly someone who reaches the level of Anders Breivik's extremism is beyond talking to. However, it's the height of arrogance and immorality to treat people who are perfectly willing to talk as if they are him. What I see so much of is the treatment of sincere questions as if they are such extremism. But lots of people with eliminationist ideologies are perfectly willing to talk, because they wish to recruit and promote their ideological viewpoint. Perhaps you could furnish examples of what sort of sincere questions you see 'being treated as if they are such extremism'. What I see most of, is people not gathering data, not communicating, and eliminating first, asking questions never. It's also possible that this is a function of your perspective and you're simply not looking in the right places. I can't help feeling that you're avoiding answering the question by simply restating your opinion over and over - 'outrage mongering' 'information buble' 'groupthink' etc. I get that you think this is a big problem, but while you acknowledge the existence of extremists who put their ideology into violent action, it sounds like you just don't know what to do about those people so you just omit them from your model of productive discourse and are then surprised when people critique your model.
- stcredzero 8y ago
  I was asking what you do about people who are willing or even enthusiastic about killing others, and I think this is qualitatively different from exclusionary behavior. In our distant past, exclusion from the group may well have meant death. This is why our emotions are tuned as they are. We feel exclusion harshly. Conversely, when we exclude, we are acting from quite a harsh place. It's not as far from violence and killing as we'd like to think. But lots of people with eliminationist ideologies are perfectly willing to talk, because they wish to recruit and promote their ideological viewpoint. I'm a bit more concerned about people with eliminationist ideologies who pretend their ideologies aren't eliminationist. Yet they support mobs who would threaten and beat up "wrongthinkers" who come into their neighborhood. Especially if they're supposed to be about equality and peace and love. The historical record isn't very kind to people who espouse peace, love, solidarity, then turn out to just want to kick out and eliminate those they find disagreeable. (And I'm talking about Berkeley, FFS!) Perhaps you could furnish examples of what sort of sincere questions you see 'being treated as if they are such extremism'. Questions about the wisdom of "listen and believe" have been treated as "hate speech" instead of as a question relevant to due process and the presumption of innocence it actually is. Questions about the a failure to use non-traditional non-binary pronouns should be treated have in turn been been treated as "hate speech" instead of as a question relevant to how appellations work on campus and in society at large. It's also possible that this is a function of your perspective and you're simply not looking in the right places. I can't help feeling that you're avoiding answering the question by simply restating your opinion over and over - 'outrage mongering' 'information buble' 'groupthink' etc. Well, for one thing, outrage mongering needs to be called out. Also, the narrative being artificially propped up by the legacy media is really quite out of touch and needs to be challenged. There is a large fraction of people in legacy media who actively distort the truth and push narratives, while willfully burying certain facts that don't fit their narrative. I get that you think this is a big problem, but while you acknowledge the existence of extremists who put their ideology into violent action, it sounds like you just don't know what to do about those people I know what should be done with those people. They should be prosecuted, where there is evidence. Also, the press should be calling out their violence and authoritarian tactics. The latter isn't happening nearly as much as it should. There's a large number of incidences of quite serious violence, which is quite apparently engineered for the purposes of political pressure and silencing. Yet nearly none of the incidences from the Far Left are widely reported on, which means that most of the incidences overall are basically buried or minimized. Something is quite out of whack about that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzF3ND9IUDk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzF3ND9IUDk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yr_4iR5NOxQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yr_4iR5NOxQ

bryanrasmussen 8y ago

Ok but if someone is just perfectly willing to talk about how Breivik is a hero and they wish more people would have the guts to do what he did it is of course not the same as actually doing what Breivik did but it seems sort of not worth talking to either, like if Breivik were the enemy of life they would be providing aid and comfort to the enemy without ever actually going out and shooting a bunch of people.

stcredzero 8y ago
People who will do violence in support of their political beliefs are in the wrong. People who support people who do violence should be questioned, regardless of where on the political spectrum they lie, or whether they are an "your side" or the "other." The people who are going around in masks, with clubs and guns committing assaults and other violent crimes need to be recognized as the terrorists and proto-terrorists they are. The media that preferentially cover one side over another, and people who give their tacit support to such things need to be called out as well. What disturbs me the most, are the people who are supposed to be peace-loving giving their tacit support to such political violence and intimidation. The remedy for violent extremist tendencies is to let people talk. It's when people feel like they can't talk, that they seek more extreme means.
- anigbrowl 8y ago
  The people who are going around in masks, with clubs and guns committing assaults and other violent crimes need to be recognized as the terrorists and proto-terrorists they are. And my question to you is what you do about people like that. The remedy for violent extremist tendencies is to let people talk. It's when people feel like they can't talk, that they seek more extreme means. [Citation needed] There are lots of extremists who have little to no difficulty in getting their opinions off their chest and who continue to maintain or escalate their extremist views. You whole theory seems to be that people just need an opportunity to vent their feels and that will cause aggressive or atrocious feelings to subside. This may work great in therapeutic contexts but I'm not willing to accept that it holds true in the world at large. Look at all the people recruited by ISIS; why didn't they just vent their feelings and then go back to their everyday lives?
  - stcredzero 8y ago
    You whole theory seems to be that people just need an opportunity to vent their feels and that will cause aggressive or atrocious feelings to subside. No. However, not letting people speak will make it more likely that they will feel there are no other options for them. That's just common sense. If you take away an option, people feel they have one less option. This may work great in therapeutic contexts but I'm not willing to accept that it holds true in the world at large. You're conflating the therapeutic context with the societal context. Sure, therapy is probabilistic, with no guarantees for any given individual. Effectively, you have been straw-manning by conflating the two. In the US, we can vote. We have freedom of speech. This is a big reason why we can resolve differences and exchange power without violence. If you make people feel they only "technically" have freedom of speech, but not really, then they resort to violence. This is just history. Your conflating the therapeutic context feeds into a narrative your'e pushing about certain people being irredeemable. Certainly, certain individuals in a therapeutic context aren't going to be easily redeemable, if at all. That doesn't mean that entire groups or swathes of the political spectrum or cohorts of political populations should be treated as irredeemable. That way lies madness. The endpoint of that is either violence or camps. However, it is convenient to do such conflating, if one wants to tar a particular subgroup for political reasons. I don't speak up for extremists. I speak against extremists. There is a widespread manipulation across society and the media where mainstream/fairly centrist people are being tarred as extremists. This too is being prosecuted by extremists.

anigbrowl 8y ago

I see this time and time again: Instead of engaging with dissenters, forums, groups of all kinds just evict people who are perfectly willing to talk. In principle, that's also acting to "simply eliminate people they find disagreeable." Er...I was asking what you do about people who are willing or even enthusiastic about killing others, and I think this is qualitatively different from exclusionary behavior. 'Eliminationist' may not be the most semantically optimal term but it's the prevailing one to describe ideologies that accommodate or promote things like mass murder or genocide. Certainly someone who reaches the level of Anders Breivik's extremism is beyond talking to. However, it's the height of arrogance and immorality to treat people who are perfectly willing to talk as if they are him. What I see so much of is the treatment of sincere questions as if they are such extremism. But lots of people with eliminationist ideologies are perfectly willing to talk, because they wish to recruit and promote their ideological viewpoint. Perhaps you could furnish examples of what sort of sincere questions you see 'being treated as if they are such extremism'. What I see most of, is people not gathering data, not communicating, and eliminating first, asking questions never. It's also possible that this is a function of your perspective and you're simply not looking in the right places. I can't help feeling that you're avoiding answering the question by simply restating your opinion over and over - 'outrage mongering' 'information buble' 'groupthink' etc. I get that you think this is a big problem, but while you acknowledge the existence of extremists who put their ideology into violent action, it sounds like you just don't know what to do about those people so you just omit them from your model of productive discourse and are then surprised when people critique your model.

stcredzero 8y ago
I was asking what you do about people who are willing or even enthusiastic about killing others, and I think this is qualitatively different from exclusionary behavior. In our distant past, exclusion from the group may well have meant death. This is why our emotions are tuned as they are. We feel exclusion harshly. Conversely, when we exclude, we are acting from quite a harsh place. It's not as far from violence and killing as we'd like to think. But lots of people with eliminationist ideologies are perfectly willing to talk, because they wish to recruit and promote their ideological viewpoint. I'm a bit more concerned about people with eliminationist ideologies who pretend their ideologies aren't eliminationist. Yet they support mobs who would threaten and beat up "wrongthinkers" who come into their neighborhood. Especially if they're supposed to be about equality and peace and love. The historical record isn't very kind to people who espouse peace, love, solidarity, then turn out to just want to kick out and eliminate those they find disagreeable. (And I'm talking about Berkeley, FFS!) Perhaps you could furnish examples of what sort of sincere questions you see 'being treated as if they are such extremism'. Questions about the wisdom of "listen and believe" have been treated as "hate speech" instead of as a question relevant to due process and the presumption of innocence it actually is. Questions about the a failure to use non-traditional non-binary pronouns should be treated have in turn been been treated as "hate speech" instead of as a question relevant to how appellations work on campus and in society at large. It's also possible that this is a function of your perspective and you're simply not looking in the right places. I can't help feeling that you're avoiding answering the question by simply restating your opinion over and over - 'outrage mongering' 'information buble' 'groupthink' etc. Well, for one thing, outrage mongering needs to be called out. Also, the narrative being artificially propped up by the legacy media is really quite out of touch and needs to be challenged. There is a large fraction of people in legacy media who actively distort the truth and push narratives, while willfully burying certain facts that don't fit their narrative. I get that you think this is a big problem, but while you acknowledge the existence of extremists who put their ideology into violent action, it sounds like you just don't know what to do about those people I know what should be done with those people. They should be prosecuted, where there is evidence. Also, the press should be calling out their violence and authoritarian tactics. The latter isn't happening nearly as much as it should. There's a large number of incidences of quite serious violence, which is quite apparently engineered for the purposes of political pressure and silencing. Yet nearly none of the incidences from the Far Left are widely reported on, which means that most of the incidences overall are basically buried or minimized. Something is quite out of whack about that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzF3ND9IUDk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzF3ND9IUDk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yr_4iR5NOxQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yr_4iR5NOxQ