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I cannot wrap my mind around why growth hacking/analytics tools make such profitable businesses. They don't add any actual value to society, so it doesn't make

I cannot wrap my mind around why growth hacking/analytics tools make such profitable businesses. They don't add any actual value to society, so it doesn't make sense that they should be profitable at all. All they do is deceive people into thinking that a low quality product is actually good (and distract them away from better alternatives). Why is it that so many profitable businesses these days add 0 or negative value to society? It seems that the best way to make money for yourself these days is by destroying value; by obfuscating facts, masquerading, deceiving, pretending, laundering, coercing, manipulating, diverting attention, saturating the media, manufacturing hype...

seem_2211 8y ago
Adding "actual value to society" is a very vague term and very prone to opinion. Adding value to a business process is much easier to define.
- jondubois 8y ago
  >> Adding value to a business process is much easier to define. But the effects of a business process on society are really important. Money is a social contract which is universal and fungible. It was designed to be a measure of the value that an individual brings to society and which that individual can redeem from society. If we lose sight of that fact and focus only on thinking about individual business processes in isolation, then the economy will lose its substance; it will be all smokes and mirrors; and everyone on the planet will end up wasting their lives working on one silly trend after another instead of helping to make actual, lasting progress.
  - seem_2211 8y ago
    You make a good point, and a lot of sense, but also a very abstract point. While I agree, it's good to think about business processes in a macro sense, most of the time that won't solve the problem of where you can add value.
jrochkind1 8y ago
> In Bullshit Jobs, American anthropologist David Graeber posits that the productivity benefits of automation have not led to a 15-hour workweek, as predicted by economist John Maynard Keynes in 1930, but instead to "bullshit jobs": "a form of paid employment that is so completely pointless, unnecessary, or pernicious that even the employee cannot justify its existence even though, as part of the conditions of employment, the employee feels obliged to pretend that this is not the case."
UncleEntity 8y ago
Except for Microsoft and Facebook all the email newsletters/new product announcements/whatever actually add value to my life since I actually find them interesting or I'd click the unsubscribe link. With Microsoft I try to get them to stop sending emails but it seems to not even be possible without some sort of advanced MSDN certification. With Facebook they seem to come up with some new opt-out classification every time they get some bad press and start filling up my inbox with stuff I couldn't care less about.
vb6lives 8y ago
Because you are making a ton of assumptions. I'm sure there are some spammers using this service. But I'm sure there are lots of legitimate users too.
quickthrower2 8y ago
Growth hacking and marketing are all about targeting the right products to the right potential customers. So as tools they are fine and add value to society, because without them product discovery would be less efficient, and there would be more big companies keeping their claim and less chance for indie hackers. Some people may use them to promote bad products, but I would argue that those businesses are the problem, not the tools.
ZeroFries 8y ago
The positive value-added is well captured (through sales conversions), while the negative value isn't. The annoyance of the sendee isn't expressed as a charge to the sender. So it's a net-positive for the sender, even if it's a net-negative for everyone involved. It's a tough problem to solve the general case, even if some specific cases have been (mostly) solved (eg: some types of pollution).
arvidkahl 8y ago
I think it's related to the old "in a gold rush, sell the shovels" adage. And these are often phantom shovels.
anonytrary 8y ago
If people value what is popular then the art of making things (appear) popular will always be in demand. Many things can be simultaneously valuable and "bad". > They don't add any actual value to society, so it doesn't make sense that they should be profitable at all... Why is it that so many profitable businesses these days add 0 or negative value to society? This is a contradiction. If it is profitable, then it is creating value. Society (or anyone) is allowed to value things you think are bad.
- anoncake 8y ago
  No. If something is profitable, it moves value into someone's pockets. Bank robberies, advertising/spam and nigerian scams are all profitable but create no value.
  - anonytrary 8y ago
    I know it's cool to hate on advertising these days, but (un)fortunately advertising does create value -- it connects people to products they didn't know they could buy or wanted to buy. People are consumers, whether we like it or not, and they enjoy consuming things. If people didn't click ads, then it would eventually not be a thing.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - anoncake 8y ago
      If advertising created value, people would seek out ads. They might even pay for them. In reality, they block them. > People are consumers, whether we like it or not, and they enjoy consuming things. Making people want to consume things is the point of advertising. Looks like it works. Most people's consumption is not limited by how many things they are "connected" to, but by money. Exposing someone to stuff they can't afford won't make them happier. > If people didn't click ads, then it would eventually not be a thing. If people didn't use heroin, then it would eventually not be a thing.
mneubrand 8y ago
Unfortunately adding value to society isn't very correlated to profitability. The most extreme example I can think of is selling heroin.

seem_2211 8y ago

Adding "actual value to society" is a very vague term and very prone to opinion. Adding value to a business process is much easier to define.

jondubois 8y ago
>> Adding value to a business process is much easier to define. But the effects of a business process on society are really important. Money is a social contract which is universal and fungible. It was designed to be a measure of the value that an individual brings to society and which that individual can redeem from society. If we lose sight of that fact and focus only on thinking about individual business processes in isolation, then the economy will lose its substance; it will be all smokes and mirrors; and everyone on the planet will end up wasting their lives working on one silly trend after another instead of helping to make actual, lasting progress.
- seem_2211 8y ago
  You make a good point, and a lot of sense, but also a very abstract point. While I agree, it's good to think about business processes in a macro sense, most of the time that won't solve the problem of where you can add value.

jrochkind1 8y ago

> In Bullshit Jobs, American anthropologist David Graeber posits that the productivity benefits of automation have not led to a 15-hour workweek, as predicted by economist John Maynard Keynes in 1930, but instead to "bullshit jobs": "a form of paid employment that is so completely pointless, unnecessary, or pernicious that even the employee cannot justify its existence even though, as part of the conditions of employment, the employee feels obliged to pretend that this is not the case."

UncleEntity 8y ago

Except for Microsoft and Facebook all the email newsletters/new product announcements/whatever actually add value to my life since I actually find them interesting or I'd click the unsubscribe link. With Microsoft I try to get them to stop sending emails but it seems to not even be possible without some sort of advanced MSDN certification. With Facebook they seem to come up with some new opt-out classification every time they get some bad press and start filling up my inbox with stuff I couldn't care less about.

vb6lives 8y ago

Because you are making a ton of assumptions. I'm sure there are some spammers using this service. But I'm sure there are lots of legitimate users too.

quickthrower2 8y ago

Growth hacking and marketing are all about targeting the right products to the right potential customers. So as tools they are fine and add value to society, because without them product discovery would be less efficient, and there would be more big companies keeping their claim and less chance for indie hackers. Some people may use them to promote bad products, but I would argue that those businesses are the problem, not the tools.

ZeroFries 8y ago

The positive value-added is well captured (through sales conversions), while the negative value isn't. The annoyance of the sendee isn't expressed as a charge to the sender. So it's a net-positive for the sender, even if it's a net-negative for everyone involved. It's a tough problem to solve the general case, even if some specific cases have been (mostly) solved (eg: some types of pollution).

arvidkahl 8y ago

I think it's related to the old "in a gold rush, sell the shovels" adage. And these are often phantom shovels.

anonytrary 8y ago

If people value what is popular then the art of making things (appear) popular will always be in demand. Many things can be simultaneously valuable and "bad". > They don't add any actual value to society, so it doesn't make sense that they should be profitable at all... Why is it that so many profitable businesses these days add 0 or negative value to society? This is a contradiction. If it is profitable, then it is creating value. Society (or anyone) is allowed to value things you think are bad.

anoncake 8y ago
No. If something is profitable, it moves value into someone's pockets. Bank robberies, advertising/spam and nigerian scams are all profitable but create no value.
- anonytrary 8y ago
  I know it's cool to hate on advertising these days, but (un)fortunately advertising does create value -- it connects people to products they didn't know they could buy or wanted to buy. People are consumers, whether we like it or not, and they enjoy consuming things. If people didn't click ads, then it would eventually not be a thing.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - anoncake 8y ago
    If advertising created value, people would seek out ads. They might even pay for them. In reality, they block them. > People are consumers, whether we like it or not, and they enjoy consuming things. Making people want to consume things is the point of advertising. Looks like it works. Most people's consumption is not limited by how many things they are "connected" to, but by money. Exposing someone to stuff they can't afford won't make them happier. > If people didn't click ads, then it would eventually not be a thing. If people didn't use heroin, then it would eventually not be a thing.

mneubrand 8y ago

Unfortunately adding value to society isn't very correlated to profitability. The most extreme example I can think of is selling heroin.