5 ms·

I find it amazing that there is so little outrage at what is happening in the USA. The country that paints itself as an example of freedom and democracy and as

by jwr 16y ago

I find it amazing that there is so little outrage at what is happening in the USA. The country that paints itself as an example of freedom and democracy and aspires to spreading those values around the world is the same country that: * kidnaps and tortures people, * sets up a military prison with no civillian oversight, outside any legal jurisdiction, where it keeps people indefinitely, * kills people in various countries using missiles launched from drones, * interrogates its citizens as they come back from abroad, threatening them with detention or not letting them into the country, * tightly controls the media and what information gets released from war zones, * has a lawless "zone" extending 100 miles from its border, where laws are unclear, and people can be searched without warrant, * seizes computers, accesses and copies data, threatens people so that they give up their passwords, * uses scare tactics on security researchers (see story above) and whistleblowers (see all the wikileaks stories) I come from a former-communist country that was under the Soviet influence. We fortunately no longer are. I think what I listed above is very visible to people like me, but somehow it goes under the radar of most Americans. I see it as classical secret police tactics, utilized in all totalitarian regimes, while Americans seem to see it as a necessary nuisance to "combat terrorism". I find it even more amazing that instead of fighting back, people just discuss workarounds. Ship your data via FedEx, keep it online, wipe your drives, carry a laptop with an empty drive… This works today, but the way things are developing, it might not work tomorrow! Wake up, people. In comparison to things I listed above the whole ridiculous story about the "naked scanners" is just a joke.

RyanMcGreal 16y ago
What amazes me is that the great swath of Obama supporters who decried the Bush administration's civil rights abuses are strangely quiet about the continuation of those abuses today. (Caveat: I'm not American, but if I was, I would have held my nose and voted for Obama in 2008.)
- jwr 16y ago
  But look at the greater problem: Obama or not, people don't actually do anything. Sure, there will be some forum discussions, but that's pretty much it. The EFF and ACLU seem to be the only organized movements that actually try to do anything. In the political landscape these issues just do not appear.
  - RyanMcGreal 16y ago
    You're right. Most people assume their democratic duty amounts to showing up and voting once every two or four years - though almost half of eligible Americans don't even do that much - and that voting for the best candidate is enough to effect change. Community organizer Saul Alinsky famously had a meeting with US President Franklin Delano Roosevelt, who had just been elected in the deepest trough of the Great Depression. Alinsky spoke about the President's role in creating a more fair and prosperous society. At the end of the meeting, FDR told Alinsky: "Okay, you've convinced me. Now go out and put pressure on me!"
  - steveklabnik 16y ago
    And when they do, they're demonized. See pretty much any protest coverage ever. I know I personally don't do anything, because I feel pretty much powerless to effect any kind of meaningful change.
- yequalsx 16y ago
  I voted for Obama. I'm a liberal and he has lost the support of the liberals. We are not silent about the continuation, and in some circumstances extension, of the abuses. In quite a few races this past election cycle in the U.S. the Republican candidate won as a result of people like me voting for the Green party. Obama has been a profound disappointment to me in the area of civil rights. That a former constitutional law professor does not stand against these abuses is almost beyond belief to me. He has been a disappointment in other areas but for him to not defend freedom and justice makes me despair for the future of the country.
  - tomjen3 16y ago
    It is worse than simple ignorance: He understand the abuses perfectly well, he just doesn't give a shit. Let that be a lesson to all of us: politicians lie, trusting them is foolish.
    - borism 16y ago
      Everybody lies and blindly trusting anyone is hardly a good idea. But it's the political system in the US that makes things so much worse. There are other systems that do a little better, though no one is ideal.
      - tomjen3 16y ago
        It would have been one thing to blindly trust him, I don't really do that with anybody, except possibly very close family; I am talking about trusting him like you would trust a not that close friend.
- eli 16y ago
  I think you're wrong about that. Obama has very vocal critics on the left.
  - borism 16y ago
    They're just not in the same left Obama is (if he's in the left at all, he's much more to the centre).
    - RyanMcGreal 16y ago
      Anywhere else in the industrialized world, Obama would be a moderate conservative. Only in the political Bizarro World we call America can Obama even remotely be considered a liberal, let alone any kind of leftist.
- mquander 16y ago
  I don't think that's accurate. If you look at large, mainstream liberal community blogs like Daily Kos, there's frequent and harsh criticism of Obama on those issues.
- Symmetry 16y ago
  I seem to recall that there was also a small but significant minority of conservatives, who were freaked out about civil rights abuses under Clinton but then became strangely silent under Bush. Government powers are always less scary when the face on them is someone you feel is a member of your tribe.
  - jlujan 16y ago
    In this example you also have to look at events during each administration. The fear after 9/11 cause many to reconsider what was reasonable encroachment on civil liberties. Everyone has an opinion on this. Mine is that it was seriously misguided and has resulted in egregious abuses.
yequalsx 16y ago
I grew up in the Canal Zone during the Soviet scare. (I'm a former colonist.) One thing we would point to as a reason why the U.S. was better than the Soviet regime was our concept of due process and the constitutionally backed freedoms. I never thought I would see the day when Americans accepted the things you describe. Growing up I often wondered how it came to pass that Germans accepted Hitler and his abuses. My girlfriend's dad fought for Hitler (she's German). His comment about that time was, "We just didn't think and then found ourselves in a war." Hearing his comment and seeing what has happened to the U.S. has made me understand these things much better. People don't think. It's easy to scare people. It can happen anywhere. A society is only as strong and vibrant as it's citizens are and things can change dramatically from generation to generation. I was interrogated when coming back from Germany in August. It pissed me off to no end. I didn't file a complaint. I took it. I have a comfortable life and it didn't seem worthwhile to make a complaint that goes nowhere. It's likely that I will live elsewhere soon.
- Xurinos 16y ago
  > I didn't file a complaint. I took it. I have a comfortable > life and it didn't seem worthwhile to make a complaint that > goes nowhere. My question: Isn't this part of the problem? "Now, we must all fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men." (Boondock Saints -- yeah, not a super source for learning good ethics, but I agree with the sentiment) I think the indifference comes from the inconvenience; you said, "I have a comfortable life and it didn't seem worthwhile," but I have heard the same from other peers. We have to be inconvenienced, to suffer, in order to reject the system. "Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it." (Thomas Paine) As you said, "A society is only as strong and vibrant as it's citizens." What would build courage in the hearts of our citizens such that they would feel comfortable enough to act? Success stories? Seeing the person in front of you buck the system? I am reminded of the recent HN article of the guy who merely handed out a flyer about the potential and untested dangers of the backscanners, which was just enough to encourage the group behind him to take a stand. Once the problem was made personal and there was obvious and present group support, others joined. You knew when you wrote this that someone would take the bait. :)
vaksel 16y ago
many people are blinded to what is going on...as long as they are more or less secure themselves, they don't care about what happens to all those other people...after all if the gov't is doing it to them, they must have done something bad. This is the same reason why most people in Nazi Germany, were fine with being Nazis(talking about the civilians here).
tsycho 16y ago
I agree with your view whole-heartedly. I think most* of the violations that you mention are done to foreigners (not just visitors, but also those who are working here on visas like me). And this population is not a part of the electorate. Hence the government doesn't really care much about them. And for most of us, it often makes sense to just stay under the radar and try our best not to get on any "government lists", else we might face much bigger trouble down the road every time we fly, or need a visa renewal etc. * The TSA is the major exception here, in that they seem to be non-discriminatory in their abuse
runjake 16y ago
Waking up isn't going to do squat. I don't challenge them because I know that they no longer value the US Constitution. I know they will rip me from my wife and kids (who rely on me to provide for them). They are all who matter to me. Unfortunately, the situation's going to require martyrs[1] to be subjected to these abuses and get them traction in the public eye. The San Diego incident is a good example. As a veteran, what's going on enrages me to no end. People are under the perception that the federal government are supposed to be our rulers. They cannot violate the Constitution, the 4th amendment. They cannot dictate what is a right and what is a privilege. They were not granted that power. And the civil rights abuses are getting worse under Obama, but few are pointing fingers at him. [1] Not in the suicide bomber, or any other violent sense, so don't kick down my door.
dnsworks 16y ago
At some point you open your eyes, accept that everything we've been told about democracy and representative republics and freedom is bullshit. Then you either decide to fight a futile fight, or try to enjoy this life that's way too short. The system is too big to fix. It's run by a small number of wealthy people, and any notion of freedom is an illusion.

by jwr 16y ago

RyanMcGreal 16y ago

What amazes me is that the great swath of Obama supporters who decried the Bush administration's civil rights abuses are strangely quiet about the continuation of those abuses today. (Caveat: I'm not American, but if I was, I would have held my nose and voted for Obama in 2008.)

jwr 16y ago
But look at the greater problem: Obama or not, people don't actually do anything. Sure, there will be some forum discussions, but that's pretty much it. The EFF and ACLU seem to be the only organized movements that actually try to do anything. In the political landscape these issues just do not appear.
- RyanMcGreal 16y ago
  You're right. Most people assume their democratic duty amounts to showing up and voting once every two or four years - though almost half of eligible Americans don't even do that much - and that voting for the best candidate is enough to effect change. Community organizer Saul Alinsky famously had a meeting with US President Franklin Delano Roosevelt, who had just been elected in the deepest trough of the Great Depression. Alinsky spoke about the President's role in creating a more fair and prosperous society. At the end of the meeting, FDR told Alinsky: "Okay, you've convinced me. Now go out and put pressure on me!"
- steveklabnik 16y ago
  And when they do, they're demonized. See pretty much any protest coverage ever. I know I personally don't do anything, because I feel pretty much powerless to effect any kind of meaningful change.
yequalsx 16y ago
I voted for Obama. I'm a liberal and he has lost the support of the liberals. We are not silent about the continuation, and in some circumstances extension, of the abuses. In quite a few races this past election cycle in the U.S. the Republican candidate won as a result of people like me voting for the Green party. Obama has been a profound disappointment to me in the area of civil rights. That a former constitutional law professor does not stand against these abuses is almost beyond belief to me. He has been a disappointment in other areas but for him to not defend freedom and justice makes me despair for the future of the country.
- tomjen3 16y ago
  It is worse than simple ignorance: He understand the abuses perfectly well, he just doesn't give a shit. Let that be a lesson to all of us: politicians lie, trusting them is foolish.
  - borism 16y ago
    Everybody lies and blindly trusting anyone is hardly a good idea. But it's the political system in the US that makes things so much worse. There are other systems that do a little better, though no one is ideal.
    - tomjen3 16y ago
      It would have been one thing to blindly trust him, I don't really do that with anybody, except possibly very close family; I am talking about trusting him like you would trust a not that close friend.
eli 16y ago
I think you're wrong about that. Obama has very vocal critics on the left.
- borism 16y ago
  They're just not in the same left Obama is (if he's in the left at all, he's much more to the centre).
  - RyanMcGreal 16y ago
    Anywhere else in the industrialized world, Obama would be a moderate conservative. Only in the political Bizarro World we call America can Obama even remotely be considered a liberal, let alone any kind of leftist.
mquander 16y ago
I don't think that's accurate. If you look at large, mainstream liberal community blogs like Daily Kos, there's frequent and harsh criticism of Obama on those issues.
Symmetry 16y ago
I seem to recall that there was also a small but significant minority of conservatives, who were freaked out about civil rights abuses under Clinton but then became strangely silent under Bush. Government powers are always less scary when the face on them is someone you feel is a member of your tribe.
- jlujan 16y ago
  In this example you also have to look at events during each administration. The fear after 9/11 cause many to reconsider what was reasonable encroachment on civil liberties. Everyone has an opinion on this. Mine is that it was seriously misguided and has resulted in egregious abuses.

yequalsx 16y ago

I grew up in the Canal Zone during the Soviet scare. (I'm a former colonist.) One thing we would point to as a reason why the U.S. was better than the Soviet regime was our concept of due process and the constitutionally backed freedoms. I never thought I would see the day when Americans accepted the things you describe. Growing up I often wondered how it came to pass that Germans accepted Hitler and his abuses. My girlfriend's dad fought for Hitler (she's German). His comment about that time was, "We just didn't think and then found ourselves in a war." Hearing his comment and seeing what has happened to the U.S. has made me understand these things much better. People don't think. It's easy to scare people. It can happen anywhere. A society is only as strong and vibrant as it's citizens are and things can change dramatically from generation to generation. I was interrogated when coming back from Germany in August. It pissed me off to no end. I didn't file a complaint. I took it. I have a comfortable life and it didn't seem worthwhile to make a complaint that goes nowhere. It's likely that I will live elsewhere soon.

Xurinos 16y ago
> I didn't file a complaint. I took it. I have a comfortable > life and it didn't seem worthwhile to make a complaint that > goes nowhere. My question: Isn't this part of the problem? "Now, we must all fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men." (Boondock Saints -- yeah, not a super source for learning good ethics, but I agree with the sentiment) I think the indifference comes from the inconvenience; you said, "I have a comfortable life and it didn't seem worthwhile," but I have heard the same from other peers. We have to be inconvenienced, to suffer, in order to reject the system. "Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it." (Thomas Paine) As you said, "A society is only as strong and vibrant as it's citizens." What would build courage in the hearts of our citizens such that they would feel comfortable enough to act? Success stories? Seeing the person in front of you buck the system? I am reminded of the recent HN article of the guy who merely handed out a flyer about the potential and untested dangers of the backscanners, which was just enough to encourage the group behind him to take a stand. Once the problem was made personal and there was obvious and present group support, others joined. You knew when you wrote this that someone would take the bait. :)

vaksel 16y ago

many people are blinded to what is going on...as long as they are more or less secure themselves, they don't care about what happens to all those other people...after all if the gov't is doing it to them, they must have done something bad. This is the same reason why most people in Nazi Germany, were fine with being Nazis(talking about the civilians here).

tsycho 16y ago

I agree with your view whole-heartedly. I think most* of the violations that you mention are done to foreigners (not just visitors, but also those who are working here on visas like me). And this population is not a part of the electorate. Hence the government doesn't really care much about them. And for most of us, it often makes sense to just stay under the radar and try our best not to get on any "government lists", else we might face much bigger trouble down the road every time we fly, or need a visa renewal etc. * The TSA is the major exception here, in that they seem to be non-discriminatory in their abuse

runjake 16y ago

Waking up isn't going to do squat. I don't challenge them because I know that they no longer value the US Constitution. I know they will rip me from my wife and kids (who rely on me to provide for them). They are all who matter to me. Unfortunately, the situation's going to require martyrs[1] to be subjected to these abuses and get them traction in the public eye. The San Diego incident is a good example. As a veteran, what's going on enrages me to no end. People are under the perception that the federal government are supposed to be our rulers. They cannot violate the Constitution, the 4th amendment. They cannot dictate what is a right and what is a privilege. They were not granted that power. And the civil rights abuses are getting worse under Obama, but few are pointing fingers at him. [1] Not in the suicide bomber, or any other violent sense, so don't kick down my door.

dnsworks 16y ago

At some point you open your eyes, accept that everything we've been told about democracy and representative republics and freedom is bullshit. Then you either decide to fight a futile fight, or try to enjoy this life that's way too short. The system is too big to fix. It's run by a small number of wealthy people, and any notion of freedom is an illusion.