7 ms·

Dr. Rhonda Patrick on DHA in Phospholipid Form and the Prevention of Alzheimers

141 points by dtawfik1 8y ago

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
Jagsz 8y ago
Dr. Patrick- if DHA/EPA is re- esterized, as it is in Biotest’s Flameout supplement. Does this re-esterization put it in a phospholipid form to be absorbed thru the BBB?
gumby 8y ago
When you eat oily fish you are eating the same oil that is expelled and inserted into a capsule. So how is the form changed?
- dtawfik1 8y ago
  This is a type of fish oil that usually comes from krill. It has a higher capacity to pass the blood-brain barrier of carriers of the APOE4 gene.
- mrob 8y ago
  The natural oil in the fish is found as triglycerides and as phospholipids. A triglyceride is an ester made from three fatty acid molecules attached to a glyerol molecule (you get esters by reacting carboxylic acids with alcohols, and glycerol is a polyol alcohol with three hydroxyl groups). A phospholipid is very similar except one of the fatty acids is replaced by some hydrophilic molecule that's attached to the glycerol via a phosphate group. The problem from a commercial point of view is that the fatty acids are mixed, but fish oil is only sold by EPA/DHA concentration. Nobody will buy natural fish oil because the EPA/DHA levels are too low. The solution is transesterification, where the glycerols are removed and replaced with ethanol. Ethanol is an alcohol with only a single hydroxyl group, so it can only form an ester with a single fatty acid. Now that all the fatty acids are in separate molecules, you can distill off the lower boiling ethyl esters of short chain fatty acids. EPA and DHA are long chain fatty acids, so their higher boiling ethyl esters will be left behind. Theoretically could transesterify the ethyl esters back to triglycerides again, but when you can just sell the ethyl esters as "fish oil concentrate" there's no reason to.
  - nate_meurer 8y ago
    This is an excellent, concise, clear explanation, thank you. > fish oil is only sold by EPA/DHA concentration. Nobody will buy natural fish oil because the EPA/DHA levels are too low. So only free fatty acids are allowed to be listed on the label as EPA/DHA? They're not allowed to count any esterified fatty acids?
    - mrob 8y ago
      I don't know the details of labeling laws, but I believe fish oil is most commonly sold as ethyl esters, and this is called "fish oil concentrate". Free fatty acids are considered a defect in edible oils. They taste rancid and make the oil decay faster. Triglycerides and ethyl esters both get digested in the small intestine by pancreatic lipase enzymes, releasing free fatty acids where you can't taste them. Both raise blood levels of free fatty acids, and the quantity of ethanol released from the ethyl esters is small enough that I think it's very unlikely to matter. But as the article points out, phospolipids get digested differently, and phospolipids are converted to ethyl esters in the transesterification processing too. By focusing only on blood levels of fatty acids, people overlooked a potentially important difference between natural and processed fish oil.
  - bigmit37 8y ago
    Is this the same for bottled flax oil? I am under the impression that flax oil has similar properties to fish oil.
    - mrob 8y ago
      I've never heard of concentrated flax oil, and all flax oil I've seen has the ALA levels I'd expect of natural flax oil. However, as discussed elsewhere in the comments, humans are not good at converting ALA to EPA and DHA, so flax oil cannot be considered a full substitute for fish oil.
- daniel-cussen 8y ago
  Chelation. When you concentrate the oil you can remove impurities there are a lot of in fish. In particular, Mercury and I think Cadmium too impede and reverse myelination, making taking fish oil for the nervous system benefits almost counterproductive.
  - manmal 8y ago
    But eg sardines should not contain much of any heavy metal? Salmon is also pretty low in mercury.
jmole 8y ago
Rhonda Patrick is one of my favorite people to listen to. She did a great interview with Joe Rogan talking all about health, digestion, nutrients, diets, etc. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9M8X_bs_fzI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9M8X_bs_fzI
- MikeCapone 8y ago
  Her podcast has been a great source of interviews with interesting researchers. Her guest appearances have also been great (she's been on Peter Attia's podcast).
  - udfalkso 8y ago
    Here are some great notes from her talk with Peter Attia: https://podcastnotes.org/2018/07/03/attia-patrick/ https://podcastnotes.org/2018/07/03/attia-patrick/ (Disclosure, I'm part of the podcastnotes team)
- honzzz 8y ago
  Let me add two interviews with Tim Ferriss: Dr. Rhonda Patrick on Life Extension, Performance, and Much More https://tim.blog/2014/06/10/the-tim-ferriss-show-rhonda-patrick-life-extension/ https://tim.blog/2014/06/10/the-tim-ferriss-show-rhonda-patr... Exploring Smart Drugs, Fasting, and Fat Loss https://tim.blog/2017/05/04/smart-drugs-fasting-and-fat-loss/ https://tim.blog/2017/05/04/smart-drugs-fasting-and-fat-loss...
rhondapatrick 8y ago
The paper is open access, so the full text is available sans paywall. :) Worth checking out if for no other reason than to appreciate the figures! https://www.fasebj.org/doi/10.1096/fj.201801412R https://www.fasebj.org/doi/10.1096/fj.201801412R
- cgh 8y ago
  If APOE4 combined with reduced DHA impairs glucose transport into the brain, would increasing blood ketone levels help sidestep this issue (along with increasing dietary DHA of course)?
- wcchandler 8y ago
  How do you think algal oil would work out? Also, are you interested in studying groups of peoples and cultures and determining if e.g. somebody who's lived a life on the Mediterranean diet is better adapted to this kind of uptake and if that's reflective of a decline in AD for that group? Or maybe even just better overall mental health?
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
simplecomplex 8y ago
Is there any actual clear link between dietary DHA and serum DHA? I’m guessing no. Humans survive on quite a wide range of dietary fat sources and composition. I stopped supplementing with fish oil after realizing there’s lots of “science” and few facts.
- dilap 8y ago
  There has to be, since humans can't make it themselves. (Assuming that's true.)
  - WalterSear 8y ago
    They can. > This finding suggests that when animal foods are wholly excluded from the diet, the endogenous production of EPA and DHA results in low but stable plasma concentrations of these fatty acids. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16087975 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16087975
    - dilap 8y ago
      TIL. Thank you.
    - knodi123 8y ago
      And yet in the article, > Unfortunately, the body cannot produce DHA on its own, and it must be acquired through the diet. So is Rhonda waaaaay behind the times re: that 14-year old paper? Or are the levels described in that paper negligible? Or did I misinterpret something, or what?
      - WalterSear 8y ago
        Good question. She may be simplifying things, or not thinking of vegans/vegetarians. No doubt it's a suboptimal amount.
- gnulinux 8y ago
  Fish is not the only source of DHA. Walnuts, acai berry and flaxseeds are also good sources.
el_don_almighty 8y ago
Fish Heads Fish Heads rolley polley fish heads Fish heads Fish heads eat them up... YUM!

141 points by dtawfik1 8y ago

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

Dr. Patrick- if DHA/EPA is re- esterized, as it is in Biotest’s Flameout supplement. Does this re-esterization put it in a phospholipid form to be absorbed thru the BBB?

gumby 8y ago

When you eat oily fish you are eating the same oil that is expelled and inserted into a capsule. So how is the form changed?

dtawfik1 8y ago
This is a type of fish oil that usually comes from krill. It has a higher capacity to pass the blood-brain barrier of carriers of the APOE4 gene.
mrob 8y ago
The natural oil in the fish is found as triglycerides and as phospholipids. A triglyceride is an ester made from three fatty acid molecules attached to a glyerol molecule (you get esters by reacting carboxylic acids with alcohols, and glycerol is a polyol alcohol with three hydroxyl groups). A phospholipid is very similar except one of the fatty acids is replaced by some hydrophilic molecule that's attached to the glycerol via a phosphate group. The problem from a commercial point of view is that the fatty acids are mixed, but fish oil is only sold by EPA/DHA concentration. Nobody will buy natural fish oil because the EPA/DHA levels are too low. The solution is transesterification, where the glycerols are removed and replaced with ethanol. Ethanol is an alcohol with only a single hydroxyl group, so it can only form an ester with a single fatty acid. Now that all the fatty acids are in separate molecules, you can distill off the lower boiling ethyl esters of short chain fatty acids. EPA and DHA are long chain fatty acids, so their higher boiling ethyl esters will be left behind. Theoretically could transesterify the ethyl esters back to triglycerides again, but when you can just sell the ethyl esters as "fish oil concentrate" there's no reason to.
- nate_meurer 8y ago
  This is an excellent, concise, clear explanation, thank you. > fish oil is only sold by EPA/DHA concentration. Nobody will buy natural fish oil because the EPA/DHA levels are too low. So only free fatty acids are allowed to be listed on the label as EPA/DHA? They're not allowed to count any esterified fatty acids?
  - mrob 8y ago
    I don't know the details of labeling laws, but I believe fish oil is most commonly sold as ethyl esters, and this is called "fish oil concentrate". Free fatty acids are considered a defect in edible oils. They taste rancid and make the oil decay faster. Triglycerides and ethyl esters both get digested in the small intestine by pancreatic lipase enzymes, releasing free fatty acids where you can't taste them. Both raise blood levels of free fatty acids, and the quantity of ethanol released from the ethyl esters is small enough that I think it's very unlikely to matter. But as the article points out, phospolipids get digested differently, and phospolipids are converted to ethyl esters in the transesterification processing too. By focusing only on blood levels of fatty acids, people overlooked a potentially important difference between natural and processed fish oil.
- bigmit37 8y ago
  Is this the same for bottled flax oil? I am under the impression that flax oil has similar properties to fish oil.
  - mrob 8y ago
    I've never heard of concentrated flax oil, and all flax oil I've seen has the ALA levels I'd expect of natural flax oil. However, as discussed elsewhere in the comments, humans are not good at converting ALA to EPA and DHA, so flax oil cannot be considered a full substitute for fish oil.
daniel-cussen 8y ago
Chelation. When you concentrate the oil you can remove impurities there are a lot of in fish. In particular, Mercury and I think Cadmium too impede and reverse myelination, making taking fish oil for the nervous system benefits almost counterproductive.
- manmal 8y ago
  But eg sardines should not contain much of any heavy metal? Salmon is also pretty low in mercury.

jmole 8y ago

Rhonda Patrick is one of my favorite people to listen to. She did a great interview with Joe Rogan talking all about health, digestion, nutrients, diets, etc. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9M8X_bs_fzI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9M8X_bs_fzI

MikeCapone 8y ago
Her podcast has been a great source of interviews with interesting researchers. Her guest appearances have also been great (she's been on Peter Attia's podcast).
- udfalkso 8y ago
  Here are some great notes from her talk with Peter Attia: https://podcastnotes.org/2018/07/03/attia-patrick/ https://podcastnotes.org/2018/07/03/attia-patrick/ (Disclosure, I'm part of the podcastnotes team)
honzzz 8y ago
Let me add two interviews with Tim Ferriss: Dr. Rhonda Patrick on Life Extension, Performance, and Much More https://tim.blog/2014/06/10/the-tim-ferriss-show-rhonda-patrick-life-extension/ https://tim.blog/2014/06/10/the-tim-ferriss-show-rhonda-patr... Exploring Smart Drugs, Fasting, and Fat Loss https://tim.blog/2017/05/04/smart-drugs-fasting-and-fat-loss/ https://tim.blog/2017/05/04/smart-drugs-fasting-and-fat-loss...

rhondapatrick 8y ago

The paper is open access, so the full text is available sans paywall. :) Worth checking out if for no other reason than to appreciate the figures! https://www.fasebj.org/doi/10.1096/fj.201801412R https://www.fasebj.org/doi/10.1096/fj.201801412R

cgh 8y ago
If APOE4 combined with reduced DHA impairs glucose transport into the brain, would increasing blood ketone levels help sidestep this issue (along with increasing dietary DHA of course)?
wcchandler 8y ago
How do you think algal oil would work out? Also, are you interested in studying groups of peoples and cultures and determining if e.g. somebody who's lived a life on the Mediterranean diet is better adapted to this kind of uptake and if that's reflective of a decline in AD for that group? Or maybe even just better overall mental health?

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

simplecomplex 8y ago

Is there any actual clear link between dietary DHA and serum DHA? I’m guessing no. Humans survive on quite a wide range of dietary fat sources and composition. I stopped supplementing with fish oil after realizing there’s lots of “science” and few facts.

dilap 8y ago
There has to be, since humans can't make it themselves. (Assuming that's true.)
- WalterSear 8y ago
  They can. > This finding suggests that when animal foods are wholly excluded from the diet, the endogenous production of EPA and DHA results in low but stable plasma concentrations of these fatty acids. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16087975 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16087975
  - dilap 8y ago
    TIL. Thank you.
  - knodi123 8y ago
    And yet in the article, > Unfortunately, the body cannot produce DHA on its own, and it must be acquired through the diet. So is Rhonda waaaaay behind the times re: that 14-year old paper? Or are the levels described in that paper negligible? Or did I misinterpret something, or what?
    - WalterSear 8y ago
      Good question. She may be simplifying things, or not thinking of vegans/vegetarians. No doubt it's a suboptimal amount.
gnulinux 8y ago
Fish is not the only source of DHA. Walnuts, acai berry and flaxseeds are also good sources.

el_don_almighty 8y ago

Fish Heads Fish Heads rolley polley fish heads Fish heads Fish heads eat them up... YUM!