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"true in part ..." Sure, it would not get the initial visibility. But we would not keep using it if was an ineffective language.

pjmlp 8y ago
Actually we would. For example, even though I am not a big fan of Go, I have to use it when customers required us to deal with Docker or K8S. Just like I have my issues with C, but would certainly use it when writing an UNIX driver. Programming languages are products, and get used because of the eco-systems they carry along, bullet point features are usually secondary to that.
- eternalban 8y ago
  Well, I guess we diverge in our views (besides affection for Go) in that I see the adoption of Go for Docker (init release 2013) & K8S (2015) as merit based choices. Go was made public in 2009. > Programming languages are products, and get used because of the eco-systems they carry along, bullet point features are usually secondary to that. Non-sequitur.
  - gmfawcett 8y ago
    It's absolutely relevant to the point that "we wouldn't keep using it if it wasn't an effective language" (modulo any disagreements about what "effective" means!). Many languages are heavily used due to network effects (popularity, marketing, community) and platform effects, not solely on technical merit. JavaScript and C come immediately to mind as examples of the platform effect on language selection. (The fact that modern JS transpilers exist merely papers over JS' dominant footing in the Web space.)
    - davidw 8y ago
      I wrote a thing about the economics of programming languages a while back: https://www.welton.it/articles/programming_language_economics.html https://www.welton.it/articles/programming_language_economic... And it absolutely does make sense to view them as products in order to understand their uptake, or why they don't become popular.
      - pjmlp 8y ago
        Your article puts it very clearly, I enjoyed reading it.
      - eternalban 8y ago
        You know, Ford Edsel was a "product" as well. I maintain that it is a non-sequitur, if not patronizing, to state the obvious facts about software language eco-systems. My perception remains that Go sufficiently delighted a critical mass of developers who then proceeded to create the said eco-system. Mere marketing can not engender a vibrant community.
        davidw 8y ago
        I don't think those things are obvious to a lot of people. > a critical mass of developers How do you reach a critical mass of developers without something that looks like "marketing"?
        eternalban 8y ago
        Please see my first post in this thread. As mentioned, I do agree that sans Rob Pike, Ken Thompson, and the Google host, the language would have likely languished in semi-obscurity. But if it was an entirely flea ridden dog, no amount of marketing would have afforded it the mind share that it possesses.
        davidw 8y ago
        Sure, you have to have something that is reasonably high quality for marketing to work, for many products.
  - pjmlp 8y ago
    K8S was initially developed in Java, the decision to switch to Go came later and they are still fighting the language, including having to maintain their own generics workaround. https://fosdem.org/2019/schedule/event/kubernetesclusterfuck/ https://fosdem.org/2019/schedule/event/kubernetesclusterfuck...
    - eternalban 8y ago
      That says far more about K8S development team than the Go language..

pjmlp 8y ago

Actually we would. For example, even though I am not a big fan of Go, I have to use it when customers required us to deal with Docker or K8S. Just like I have my issues with C, but would certainly use it when writing an UNIX driver. Programming languages are products, and get used because of the eco-systems they carry along, bullet point features are usually secondary to that.

eternalban 8y ago
Well, I guess we diverge in our views (besides affection for Go) in that I see the adoption of Go for Docker (init release 2013) & K8S (2015) as merit based choices. Go was made public in 2009. > Programming languages are products, and get used because of the eco-systems they carry along, bullet point features are usually secondary to that. Non-sequitur.
- gmfawcett 8y ago
  It's absolutely relevant to the point that "we wouldn't keep using it if it wasn't an effective language" (modulo any disagreements about what "effective" means!). Many languages are heavily used due to network effects (popularity, marketing, community) and platform effects, not solely on technical merit. JavaScript and C come immediately to mind as examples of the platform effect on language selection. (The fact that modern JS transpilers exist merely papers over JS' dominant footing in the Web space.)
  - davidw 8y ago
    I wrote a thing about the economics of programming languages a while back: https://www.welton.it/articles/programming_language_economics.html https://www.welton.it/articles/programming_language_economic... And it absolutely does make sense to view them as products in order to understand their uptake, or why they don't become popular.
    - pjmlp 8y ago
      Your article puts it very clearly, I enjoyed reading it.
    - eternalban 8y ago
      You know, Ford Edsel was a "product" as well. I maintain that it is a non-sequitur, if not patronizing, to state the obvious facts about software language eco-systems. My perception remains that Go sufficiently delighted a critical mass of developers who then proceeded to create the said eco-system. Mere marketing can not engender a vibrant community.
      - davidw 8y ago
        I don't think those things are obvious to a lot of people. > a critical mass of developers How do you reach a critical mass of developers without something that looks like "marketing"?
        eternalban 8y ago
        Please see my first post in this thread. As mentioned, I do agree that sans Rob Pike, Ken Thompson, and the Google host, the language would have likely languished in semi-obscurity. But if it was an entirely flea ridden dog, no amount of marketing would have afforded it the mind share that it possesses.
        davidw 8y ago
        Sure, you have to have something that is reasonably high quality for marketing to work, for many products.
- pjmlp 8y ago
  K8S was initially developed in Java, the decision to switch to Go came later and they are still fighting the language, including having to maintain their own generics workaround. https://fosdem.org/2019/schedule/event/kubernetesclusterfuck/ https://fosdem.org/2019/schedule/event/kubernetesclusterfuck...
  - eternalban 8y ago
    That says far more about K8S development team than the Go language..