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I have recently been labeled a “brilliant jerk” at a FAANG company and threatened with termination. In actuality I now know that I have acted like this (not a

I have recently been labeled a “brilliant jerk” at a FAANG company and threatened with termination. In actuality I now know that I have acted like this (not always but sometimes) and I take ownership of it. In trying to come to terms with it, I’ve been doing a lot of research and I think the research is overly simplistic particularly when it comes to motivation. I am not a psychopath and I am not purely self interested. My motivations have never been money or climbing or anything like that. I’ve wanted to build cool stuff that people say can’t be done but that is also successful. I have always pulled in the direction of the company and not my own (at least in my mind). I have never treated anyone badly simply to treat them badly to make myself feel better or to put them down. I always thought it was best to give people direct and honest feedback. It’s almost never what I was saying that was wrong but how I was saying it. I was too harsh and I ignored emotional data. In trying to be objective, I tried to keep things logical and data based always; I would get upset when people could not follow a logical line of thought. I often used, in a modified way, the Socratic method to show someone that their argument was wrong. This led people to feel I was disrespectful to them because it would force a contradiction. By doing this, I meant to teach them but I was wrong; it simply made people feel foolish. I ignored the emotional side of things and that’s a big problem for me. It’s also not true that I would never concede I was wrong. You just had to have a really strong case. Up until now this has also “worked” as it’s gotten things done on time. In one case, my work saved a product line that would have failed entirely. It took a lot of courage to stick my neck out and said we had to change direction. The change in direction meant abandoning something I had spent a year designing. Nobody wanted to abandon that work and shift. It was the right thing to do though. I took a huge amount risk and flack at the time and probably was almost fired. So there is good and bad to this. I am working to change but something is going to get lost. I probably won’t stick my neck out like that again. I am also human. I make mistakes too and I’m trying to learn from all this.

diminoten 8y ago
It's... scary sometimes, reading comments like these. On one hand, I identify with what you've written here. I too had issues (still have) with working on a team. On the other hand, I find myself identifying with someone with clear narcissistic tendencies, or at the very least is supremely unaware of themselves. Why write this little confessional here, a place that's clearly not about you or your specific issue? Why couch it with tons of "but I didn't actually do anything wrong" notes? Why write it in such a rambling, stream-of-consciousness style? Why put these weirdly specific anecdotes, and why would the reader (who is the reader, by the way) even believe you? I see these comments, and I get scared, because I recognize that this is how some people view me, and that's... not good.
- wppick 8y ago
  It's... an anecdote. It's very related to the linked article, and adds insight into what the industry is considering toxic. You must be very easily scared if a personal anecdote causes this kind of a reaction from you.
  - diminoten 8y ago
    Yes, I am easily scared by strangers on the Internet espousing clearly deranged, off-tilt rants that remind me of some of the shit I say.
    - mmmBacon 8y ago
      Judging by your comment I'm guessing maybe the GP's comment hits a little too close to home.
      - diminoten 8y ago
        Yes, that's exactly what I'm trying to say. Seeing it laid out such as it is disconcerts me. Does this trouble folks? Went from +2 over an hour to -3 in like 30 seconds.
  - exolymph 8y ago
    I vouched for this comment — previously it was flagged and you had to have showdead enabled to see it. The last sentence is a tad aggressive, but no more rude than statements from the person they're corresponding with.
bargl 8y ago
> I would get upset when people could not follow a logical line of thought. I think that's one of the biggest things I struggle with and have tried to get in front of for myself. I know picking one sentence out takes it out of context. But this is the thing I find myself working on the most to not seem like a jerk. Most of the time, if I take the time to try to understand people, then I can teach them. I've been learning this with my wife, when I got way way deep down into something and she has an opinion on it but hasn't researched it like I have, I try to throw information at her until she "sees" what I see. We actually fought about this earlier this week. I was doing what you're talking about right now. When I catch myself doing this, I have to scale back. Not everyone will get what you are saying at the same level. Find people who do and talk to them, about the details and figure out a way to abstract your ideas for people based on figuring out what they know and how to best simplify the concepts for what they already know. It doesn't work for me all the time, sometimes I still seem like a jerk. But I struggle with this too, although I assume you are probably quite a bit more intelligent than I am. I also use self deprecation strategically to give people I'm talking to an insight into my faults. Sometimes it helps me build kinship. Always something I believe about myself, but in a way that helps me show I'm not perfect. >I probably won’t stick my neck out like that again. When I find myself in this situation (which I do from time to time) I find something else worth sticking my neck out for. >I make mistakes too and I’m trying to learn from all this. That's what makes you an awesome human. Good luck.
deleted 8y ago
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trhway 8y ago
> I often used, in a modified way, the Socratic method to show someone that their argument was wrong. you do know how Socrates was punished for such a behavior ... The Socratic like approach seems on practice to be "win the battle, lose the war", while, for comparison, Carnegie would be something like "win the war while may be loosing the battle". Being myself that typical "battle winner war looser" with the effect amplified by the typical Russian lack of soft skills, i was at some point given a enlightening talk by a friendly American which sounded something like this "Look, you're a <high compliment of my technical abilities, i mean he is an American after all :) >. You say the technically correct things which you always start with 'No,...' and that doesn't let it to result in the otherwise possible productive effect. "
commandlinefan 8y ago
> I have recently been labeled a “brilliant jerk” Nobody's ever come right out and labelled me that way, but I suspect there are at least a few people in my past who probably would describe me that way (they'd probably backtrack and say, "well, he wasn't all that brilliant - he just knew a lot of stuff is all. But boy was he a jerk!"). Not all, not even most, but at least some. Like I said, this could all be in my head, but I don't think so - see, I've had co-workers who really didn't know how to do their job, and basically demanded my help. I'm not talking about interns who I was in charge of training, I'm talking about people with 10 years experience who had the same title, benefits and perks as I had. And they were completely incompetent. I have to work hard to keep my patience with those people, and I usually give them hints as to what to do (have you tried loading it in a debugger? Have you checked to make sure you're pointed at the right database?), but yeah, I have some disdain for these people and in spite of my best efforts to hide it, they sometimes seem to pick up on it. What's unfair about the "brilliant jerk" label (or the "competent jerk" to be less self-aggrandizing) is that the more competent you are, the more likely you're going to get the label, no matter what you do.
- hnick 8y ago
  Oh I know that too well. Having to explain that when the system says file not found, it means your program is trying to use a file that is not there. Or pasting error messages into google and summarising the first result for them. At one point it was so bad I felt like I was just tech support, and was in a reactive not a proactive mode because the next question is surely coming soon so I'd better not start any deep work.
deleted 8y ago
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lkfjjfkdkdk 8y ago
I had the same experience. My manager refused to see what was in front of him. After I left that jobs, my mental health greatly improved because I no longer had to deal with unrealistic deadlines from my incompetent manager. The next time I run into this situation again, I know not to voice my concerns and just start looking for a new job. There is no point disagreeing because it is alway you that will lose no matter the outcome. People like sweet talkers, not naysayers. Let them find out themselves when the hard way. P.s. after I left, my manager couldn’t ship anything for 1 full year. It turns out, I was the only one keeping the boat afloat.
honkycat 8y ago
I am not convinced you have actually learned your lesson here. You still sound extremely condescending. This sounds like a post from /r/iamverysmart. Leadership and emotional intelligence are part of intelligence. Have you thought that maybe, instead of all of your coworkers not understanding, that YOU are the one that doesn't get it? > In actuality I now know that I have acted like this (not always but sometimes) and I take ownership of it. Have you taken ownership? In this post, you are still trying to justify your abusive behavior by building it up with some kind of pseudo-intellectual BS. "As the genius-king of (random FAANG), I must be gentler with my subjects. I can see now why the NPCs were upset by my mental lashings." Also, you still cast a lot of the blame on your co-workers for "not being smart enough" instead of owning up to your own antisocial behaviour. > I was too harsh and I ignored emotional data. Emotional data? Do you mean the feelings and thoughts of the people around you? "Ignored emotional data" - I didn't care about how my co-workers felt, just that I ended up being the person who looked the smartest in the end. > In trying to be objective, I tried to keep things logical and data based always; I would get upset when people could not follow a logical line of thought. I seriously doubt that at a FAANG people "could not follow a logical train of thought." Maybe you just were not as convincing or clear as you thought you were. Or maybe people were just tired of you and the way you treated everyone, and you burned all good-will when trying to get your agendas passed. Also, here, you still make it other people's fault. "I would get upset because they were dumb." No. It is not their fault you struggled to communicate. It is not their fault you cannot control your emotions. That is your YOUR problem. You can kick and scream all you want, but YOU have to go to the world, the world will not come to you. > I often used, in a modified way, the Socratic method to show someone that their argument was wrong. This led people to feel I was disrespectful to them because it would force a contradiction. By doing this, I meant to teach them but I was wrong; it simply made people feel foolish. I ignored the emotional side of things and that’s a big problem for me. This is the big one for me. "using the Socratic method to show someone that their argument was wrong" is incredibly pretentious. You are not their professor, these are not students. These are adults with degrees and jobs. Who have been through tragedy and triumph and built up at least a nugget of wisdom ( hopefully ). Not your peons to whip with "Socratic method" that makes you feel oh-so-smart. People have pride, and what your describing completely ignores that. In fact, it seems like it is seeking to HARM their pride. "using the Socratic method to show someone that their argument was wrong" - Is that what you were doing? Or were you forcing people to play your weirdo sociopath games for longs periods of time? It sounds like you would trap them in a room and be an unpleasant sociopath instead of just explaining your reasoning like an adult. You really do not seem to value other people or consider their thoughts AT ALL. You seem to think you are the only person with a brain. Me, personally: I would have seen through the Socratic method BS immediately, I would have found it extremely condescending, and it would have pissed me off. > It’s also not true that I would never concede I was wrong. You just had to have a really strong case. So you would just argue until you won. Contgratulations. You sound like a lot of fun to work with.
xsmasher 8y ago
I appreciate your comment; it gives me hope that formerly toxic people can change. EDIT: toxic might be too strong; let's say difficult to work with.

diminoten 8y ago

It's... scary sometimes, reading comments like these. On one hand, I identify with what you've written here. I too had issues (still have) with working on a team. On the other hand, I find myself identifying with someone with clear narcissistic tendencies, or at the very least is supremely unaware of themselves. Why write this little confessional here, a place that's clearly not about you or your specific issue? Why couch it with tons of "but I didn't actually do anything wrong" notes? Why write it in such a rambling, stream-of-consciousness style? Why put these weirdly specific anecdotes, and why would the reader (who is the reader, by the way) even believe you? I see these comments, and I get scared, because I recognize that this is how some people view me, and that's... not good.

wppick 8y ago
It's... an anecdote. It's very related to the linked article, and adds insight into what the industry is considering toxic. You must be very easily scared if a personal anecdote causes this kind of a reaction from you.
- diminoten 8y ago
  Yes, I am easily scared by strangers on the Internet espousing clearly deranged, off-tilt rants that remind me of some of the shit I say.
  - mmmBacon 8y ago
    Judging by your comment I'm guessing maybe the GP's comment hits a little too close to home.
    - diminoten 8y ago
      Yes, that's exactly what I'm trying to say. Seeing it laid out such as it is disconcerts me. Does this trouble folks? Went from +2 over an hour to -3 in like 30 seconds.
- exolymph 8y ago
  I vouched for this comment — previously it was flagged and you had to have showdead enabled to see it. The last sentence is a tad aggressive, but no more rude than statements from the person they're corresponding with.

bargl 8y ago

> I would get upset when people could not follow a logical line of thought. I think that's one of the biggest things I struggle with and have tried to get in front of for myself. I know picking one sentence out takes it out of context. But this is the thing I find myself working on the most to not seem like a jerk. Most of the time, if I take the time to try to understand people, then I can teach them. I've been learning this with my wife, when I got way way deep down into something and she has an opinion on it but hasn't researched it like I have, I try to throw information at her until she "sees" what I see. We actually fought about this earlier this week. I was doing what you're talking about right now. When I catch myself doing this, I have to scale back. Not everyone will get what you are saying at the same level. Find people who do and talk to them, about the details and figure out a way to abstract your ideas for people based on figuring out what they know and how to best simplify the concepts for what they already know. It doesn't work for me all the time, sometimes I still seem like a jerk. But I struggle with this too, although I assume you are probably quite a bit more intelligent than I am. I also use self deprecation strategically to give people I'm talking to an insight into my faults. Sometimes it helps me build kinship. Always something I believe about myself, but in a way that helps me show I'm not perfect. >I probably won’t stick my neck out like that again. When I find myself in this situation (which I do from time to time) I find something else worth sticking my neck out for. >I make mistakes too and I’m trying to learn from all this. That's what makes you an awesome human. Good luck.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

trhway 8y ago

> I often used, in a modified way, the Socratic method to show someone that their argument was wrong. you do know how Socrates was punished for such a behavior ... The Socratic like approach seems on practice to be "win the battle, lose the war", while, for comparison, Carnegie would be something like "win the war while may be loosing the battle". Being myself that typical "battle winner war looser" with the effect amplified by the typical Russian lack of soft skills, i was at some point given a enlightening talk by a friendly American which sounded something like this "Look, you're a <high compliment of my technical abilities, i mean he is an American after all :) >. You say the technically correct things which you always start with 'No,...' and that doesn't let it to result in the otherwise possible productive effect. "

commandlinefan 8y ago

> I have recently been labeled a “brilliant jerk” Nobody's ever come right out and labelled me that way, but I suspect there are at least a few people in my past who probably would describe me that way (they'd probably backtrack and say, "well, he wasn't all that brilliant - he just knew a lot of stuff is all. But boy was he a jerk!"). Not all, not even most, but at least some. Like I said, this could all be in my head, but I don't think so - see, I've had co-workers who really didn't know how to do their job, and basically demanded my help. I'm not talking about interns who I was in charge of training, I'm talking about people with 10 years experience who had the same title, benefits and perks as I had. And they were completely incompetent. I have to work hard to keep my patience with those people, and I usually give them hints as to what to do (have you tried loading it in a debugger? Have you checked to make sure you're pointed at the right database?), but yeah, I have some disdain for these people and in spite of my best efforts to hide it, they sometimes seem to pick up on it. What's unfair about the "brilliant jerk" label (or the "competent jerk" to be less self-aggrandizing) is that the more competent you are, the more likely you're going to get the label, no matter what you do.

hnick 8y ago
Oh I know that too well. Having to explain that when the system says file not found, it means your program is trying to use a file that is not there. Or pasting error messages into google and summarising the first result for them. At one point it was so bad I felt like I was just tech support, and was in a reactive not a proactive mode because the next question is surely coming soon so I'd better not start any deep work.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

lkfjjfkdkdk 8y ago

I had the same experience. My manager refused to see what was in front of him. After I left that jobs, my mental health greatly improved because I no longer had to deal with unrealistic deadlines from my incompetent manager. The next time I run into this situation again, I know not to voice my concerns and just start looking for a new job. There is no point disagreeing because it is alway you that will lose no matter the outcome. People like sweet talkers, not naysayers. Let them find out themselves when the hard way. P.s. after I left, my manager couldn’t ship anything for 1 full year. It turns out, I was the only one keeping the boat afloat.

honkycat 8y ago

I am not convinced you have actually learned your lesson here. You still sound extremely condescending. This sounds like a post from /r/iamverysmart. Leadership and emotional intelligence are part of intelligence. Have you thought that maybe, instead of all of your coworkers not understanding, that YOU are the one that doesn't get it? > In actuality I now know that I have acted like this (not always but sometimes) and I take ownership of it. Have you taken ownership? In this post, you are still trying to justify your abusive behavior by building it up with some kind of pseudo-intellectual BS. "As the genius-king of (random FAANG), I must be gentler with my subjects. I can see now why the NPCs were upset by my mental lashings." Also, you still cast a lot of the blame on your co-workers for "not being smart enough" instead of owning up to your own antisocial behaviour. > I was too harsh and I ignored emotional data. Emotional data? Do you mean the feelings and thoughts of the people around you? "Ignored emotional data" - I didn't care about how my co-workers felt, just that I ended up being the person who looked the smartest in the end. > In trying to be objective, I tried to keep things logical and data based always; I would get upset when people could not follow a logical line of thought. I seriously doubt that at a FAANG people "could not follow a logical train of thought." Maybe you just were not as convincing or clear as you thought you were. Or maybe people were just tired of you and the way you treated everyone, and you burned all good-will when trying to get your agendas passed. Also, here, you still make it other people's fault. "I would get upset because they were dumb." No. It is not their fault you struggled to communicate. It is not their fault you cannot control your emotions. That is your YOUR problem. You can kick and scream all you want, but YOU have to go to the world, the world will not come to you. > I often used, in a modified way, the Socratic method to show someone that their argument was wrong. This led people to feel I was disrespectful to them because it would force a contradiction. By doing this, I meant to teach them but I was wrong; it simply made people feel foolish. I ignored the emotional side of things and that’s a big problem for me. This is the big one for me. "using the Socratic method to show someone that their argument was wrong" is incredibly pretentious. You are not their professor, these are not students. These are adults with degrees and jobs. Who have been through tragedy and triumph and built up at least a nugget of wisdom ( hopefully ). Not your peons to whip with "Socratic method" that makes you feel oh-so-smart. People have pride, and what your describing completely ignores that. In fact, it seems like it is seeking to HARM their pride. "using the Socratic method to show someone that their argument was wrong" - Is that what you were doing? Or were you forcing people to play your weirdo sociopath games for longs periods of time? It sounds like you would trap them in a room and be an unpleasant sociopath instead of just explaining your reasoning like an adult. You really do not seem to value other people or consider their thoughts AT ALL. You seem to think you are the only person with a brain. Me, personally: I would have seen through the Socratic method BS immediately, I would have found it extremely condescending, and it would have pissed me off. > It’s also not true that I would never concede I was wrong. You just had to have a really strong case. So you would just argue until you won. Contgratulations. You sound like a lot of fun to work with.

xsmasher 8y ago

I appreciate your comment; it gives me hope that formerly toxic people can change. EDIT: toxic might be too strong; let's say difficult to work with.