5 ms·

4G->5G is the equivalent to upgrading from gigabit to 10 gigabit ethernet yet everyone is treating it like some kind of insane technology. I have yet to see wh

by nimish 8y ago

4G->5G is the equivalent to upgrading from gigabit to 10 gigabit ethernet yet everyone is treating it like some kind of insane technology. I have yet to see what exactly the hype is about.

johnm1019 8y ago
I mostly agree but I want to nitpick. One of the areas I've heard should be improving with 5G is latency. On 4G we're talking O(10ms)? which on 5G, so says the marketing, should be O(1ms). If this is true, it will make a noticeable impact on the responsiveness of web driven apps (aka almost all apps) as well as video/audio chat liveness. Was this oversold to me (highly probable)?
- Tharkun 8y ago
  Latency is the sum of its parts. It doesn't matter if the latency from the cell tower to your phone is 1ms or 10ms if the rest of the trip takes 100ms. It's nice to keep some of the latency down, but it's not going to magically enable 1ms transatlantic communication.
- staplers 8y ago
  100ms is generally referred to as instantaneous in regards to user experience. For example: A 10ms video refresh rate would be 100fps.. the average movie is 24fps.
  - penagwin 8y ago
    That depends on what the user did, in video games a 100ms delay would be terrible, however in that situation the user is inputing highly timed inputs and is focused on the output. But in general for web browsing, 100ms would be unnoticeable yeah.
- dharma1 8y ago
  Reducing latency between the tower and your phone by 9ms won't make a big difference to the overall experience of web apps. But I think real world 4G latency is more like 40-50ms? In addition to mobile network latency you have to add a few more things - depending on how far you are from the data centre serving the web app you're looking at ~20ms-300ms additional network latency, plus however long the server takes to process your request, regardless of 4G or 5G. Check out https://www.cloudping.info/ https://www.cloudping.info/ for some ping times to AWS datacentres around the world
  - johnm1019 8y ago
    FYI O(10ms) means anything from 10-99ms.
- femto 8y ago
  Latency is an active research area and a driver for updating wireless networks. You won't see the results in the current 5G roll outs, which concentrate on eMBB, but the research is feeding into the future URLLC (Ultra-Reliable Low-Latency Communications), which is a 5G protocol aimed at machine-to-machine communications. Beyond URLLC are protocols aimed at replacing wires in "serious" industrial control systems: things like real time control of grid switchgear and heavy machinery, so you might not see it on your phone. Latencies of the order of microseconds have been demonstrated in recent years and the stretch goal is about 200ns.
- deathanatos 8y ago
  > O(10ms)? […] so says the marketing https://i.imgur.com/Dg4Jit5.png https://i.imgur.com/Dg4Jit5.png That's my RTT ping to 8.8.8.8 as I travelled south on CalTrain from SF last week, on T~mobile's network. Now, this is on an old phone that is only capable of HSPA+. However, the actual performance on the whole is still nowhere near any theoretical limits, or even limits of HSPA+.
saidajigumi 8y ago
Just that: faster speeds, except it'll be far spottier than a 1Gib -> 10Gib ethernet upgrade due to a collection of issues that will make it hard to get full 5G speeds on a regular basis. I'd take 4G LTE as implemented in much of urban Japan over hypothetical 5G any day. I witnessed nigh-instant web page load times with my phone reporting zero bars in the Tokyo subway once. Over a period of weeks, I can't recall having anything less than a "pretty darn good" level of service, no matter what the signal was reported as. In the US, I find that two bars is slow and sketchy, while one bar (still @ 4G LTE reported service!) is often a "forget about it" level of service. I.e. I'd take service consistency over theoretical-max-speed any time. On that basis, I suspect the signal consistency challenges 5G faces will make it a very frustrating service for many real-world users.
- jessriedel 8y ago
  It sounds like you're mostly frustrated with the fact that the bars on your phone are lying to you, which is true but sorta separate.
  - saidajigumi 8y ago
    No, the bars are peripheral – it's that I want that phenomenal quality of service I experienced while traveling. Bars notwithstanding, I simply always had good service. I didn't have to care about the bars. I'd rather have that kind of ubiquitous and reliable 4G LTE than a few areas of hyper-fast yet finicky 5G.
  - wyldfire 8y ago
    The indicator "bars" usually show RSSI which doesn't necessarily map to throughput. Or rather, it's closer to a normalized metric for the (mobile+network infra)'s capability, but not an absolute metric like a speedometer.
    - ngcc_hk 8y ago
      Any measurement tool for iOS? I guess we cannot use Speedtest day the day, just have an idea ... Also is signal strength important as some 4g router do report it but they are bigger
jessriedel 8y ago
If you just mean that major Telecom companies are hyping this in their advertisements, well duh. But for technical folks, I've only heard them raving about the techniques being used being insane, and they indeed seem pretty fantastic to me. That this is only (!) increasing bandwidth and lowering latency by an order of magnitude is true, but less important. Similar things can be said about the insane techniques that have been used to increase processor power each order of magnitude.
Nokinside 8y ago
People seem to have strong opinion that this is the case even though they are most likely wrong. Just some changes: * You will have your own 5G home router micro cells. Factories will have their own 5G networks in unallocate bandwidth. Like Wi-fi but lower latency and better services. * High quality low latency streaming means that gaming consoles will disappear from homes. You can stream games either from servers or from edge servers. You can have "tactile internet" with 5G latency. Enough to stream games. * Very low power gadgets in your home will use 5G.
- mcguire 8y ago
  Of course, once you leave your home....
- jdhn 8y ago
  >You can stream games either from servers or from edge servers Can't wait for the rise of GaaS (gaming as a service) and the associated monthly subscription fees.
- nimish 8y ago
  Why? I have wifi. It's low enough latency. What better services would I have using 5g vs WiFi as a layer 2? Nothing about 5g is _unique_ to 5g except that it's controlled by telcos.
  - Nokinside 8y ago
    5G is less controlled by telcos than 4G. You can run local networks without buying it from telcos.
    - nimish 8y ago
      But I can already do that with WiFi? I'm really not seeing the advantage unless somehow there's going to be a lot of 5G gear in unlicensed bands that's somehow mystically better than WiFi.
XnoiVeX 8y ago
That is gross over-simplification IMHO.

by nimish 8y ago

4G->5G is the equivalent to upgrading from gigabit to 10 gigabit ethernet yet everyone is treating it like some kind of insane technology. I have yet to see what exactly the hype is about.

johnm1019 8y ago

I mostly agree but I want to nitpick. One of the areas I've heard should be improving with 5G is latency. On 4G we're talking O(10ms)? which on 5G, so says the marketing, should be O(1ms). If this is true, it will make a noticeable impact on the responsiveness of web driven apps (aka almost all apps) as well as video/audio chat liveness. Was this oversold to me (highly probable)?

Tharkun 8y ago
Latency is the sum of its parts. It doesn't matter if the latency from the cell tower to your phone is 1ms or 10ms if the rest of the trip takes 100ms. It's nice to keep some of the latency down, but it's not going to magically enable 1ms transatlantic communication.
staplers 8y ago
100ms is generally referred to as instantaneous in regards to user experience. For example: A 10ms video refresh rate would be 100fps.. the average movie is 24fps.
- penagwin 8y ago
  That depends on what the user did, in video games a 100ms delay would be terrible, however in that situation the user is inputing highly timed inputs and is focused on the output. But in general for web browsing, 100ms would be unnoticeable yeah.
dharma1 8y ago
Reducing latency between the tower and your phone by 9ms won't make a big difference to the overall experience of web apps. But I think real world 4G latency is more like 40-50ms? In addition to mobile network latency you have to add a few more things - depending on how far you are from the data centre serving the web app you're looking at ~20ms-300ms additional network latency, plus however long the server takes to process your request, regardless of 4G or 5G. Check out https://www.cloudping.info/ https://www.cloudping.info/ for some ping times to AWS datacentres around the world
- johnm1019 8y ago
  FYI O(10ms) means anything from 10-99ms.
femto 8y ago
Latency is an active research area and a driver for updating wireless networks. You won't see the results in the current 5G roll outs, which concentrate on eMBB, but the research is feeding into the future URLLC (Ultra-Reliable Low-Latency Communications), which is a 5G protocol aimed at machine-to-machine communications. Beyond URLLC are protocols aimed at replacing wires in "serious" industrial control systems: things like real time control of grid switchgear and heavy machinery, so you might not see it on your phone. Latencies of the order of microseconds have been demonstrated in recent years and the stretch goal is about 200ns.
deathanatos 8y ago
> O(10ms)? […] so says the marketing https://i.imgur.com/Dg4Jit5.png https://i.imgur.com/Dg4Jit5.png That's my RTT ping to 8.8.8.8 as I travelled south on CalTrain from SF last week, on T~mobile's network. Now, this is on an old phone that is only capable of HSPA+. However, the actual performance on the whole is still nowhere near any theoretical limits, or even limits of HSPA+.

saidajigumi 8y ago

Just that: faster speeds, except it'll be far spottier than a 1Gib -> 10Gib ethernet upgrade due to a collection of issues that will make it hard to get full 5G speeds on a regular basis. I'd take 4G LTE as implemented in much of urban Japan over hypothetical 5G any day. I witnessed nigh-instant web page load times with my phone reporting zero bars in the Tokyo subway once. Over a period of weeks, I can't recall having anything less than a "pretty darn good" level of service, no matter what the signal was reported as. In the US, I find that two bars is slow and sketchy, while one bar (still @ 4G LTE reported service!) is often a "forget about it" level of service. I.e. I'd take service consistency over theoretical-max-speed any time. On that basis, I suspect the signal consistency challenges 5G faces will make it a very frustrating service for many real-world users.

jessriedel 8y ago
It sounds like you're mostly frustrated with the fact that the bars on your phone are lying to you, which is true but sorta separate.
- saidajigumi 8y ago
  No, the bars are peripheral – it's that I want that phenomenal quality of service I experienced while traveling. Bars notwithstanding, I simply always had good service. I didn't have to care about the bars. I'd rather have that kind of ubiquitous and reliable 4G LTE than a few areas of hyper-fast yet finicky 5G.
- wyldfire 8y ago
  The indicator "bars" usually show RSSI which doesn't necessarily map to throughput. Or rather, it's closer to a normalized metric for the (mobile+network infra)'s capability, but not an absolute metric like a speedometer.
  - ngcc_hk 8y ago
    Any measurement tool for iOS? I guess we cannot use Speedtest day the day, just have an idea ... Also is signal strength important as some 4g router do report it but they are bigger

jessriedel 8y ago

If you just mean that major Telecom companies are hyping this in their advertisements, well duh. But for technical folks, I've only heard them raving about the techniques being used being insane, and they indeed seem pretty fantastic to me. That this is only (!) increasing bandwidth and lowering latency by an order of magnitude is true, but less important. Similar things can be said about the insane techniques that have been used to increase processor power each order of magnitude.

Nokinside 8y ago

People seem to have strong opinion that this is the case even though they are most likely wrong. Just some changes: * You will have your own 5G home router micro cells. Factories will have their own 5G networks in unallocate bandwidth. Like Wi-fi but lower latency and better services. * High quality low latency streaming means that gaming consoles will disappear from homes. You can stream games either from servers or from edge servers. You can have "tactile internet" with 5G latency. Enough to stream games. * Very low power gadgets in your home will use 5G.

mcguire 8y ago
Of course, once you leave your home....
jdhn 8y ago
>You can stream games either from servers or from edge servers Can't wait for the rise of GaaS (gaming as a service) and the associated monthly subscription fees.
nimish 8y ago
Why? I have wifi. It's low enough latency. What better services would I have using 5g vs WiFi as a layer 2? Nothing about 5g is _unique_ to 5g except that it's controlled by telcos.
- Nokinside 8y ago
  5G is less controlled by telcos than 4G. You can run local networks without buying it from telcos.
  - nimish 8y ago
    But I can already do that with WiFi? I'm really not seeing the advantage unless somehow there's going to be a lot of 5G gear in unlicensed bands that's somehow mystically better than WiFi.

XnoiVeX 8y ago

That is gross over-simplification IMHO.