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That is what I am really concerned with. Some automatic process that will ban me if I try and fight their system. The only way out is to make enough noise on so

That is what I am really concerned with. Some automatic process that will ban me if I try and fight their system. The only way out is to make enough noise on social media that someone in corporate makes a policy exception.

ryandrake 8y ago
Why worry about being banned? Why would you want to continue to do business with a company that treats you like this? When I get to the point where I am contemplating a CC chargeback, the bridge is already burned.
- neetdeth 8y ago
  Because Amazon is no longer a simple bookseller. It's a diversified mega-corporation that is big enough that the average individual will want to think twice before getting on its bad side. What if you want to host something on AWS? Stream on Twitch? Shop at an Amazon Go? Keep listening to your Audible library? What if you're using home automation equipment that's tethered to a cloud service and Amazon acquires the company? Sure, a simple chargeback probably won't trigger broad spectrum retaliation though all their subsidiaries, but the fact is that Amazon has accrued a lot of power in recent years.
  - tyingq 8y ago
    Other megacorps like Google have already demonstrated that ability to cancel all your services for violating terms on just one.
    - pheeney 8y ago
      And to top it off theres no support channel or humans in the process to "appeal" their decision. The only luck you have is being semi-famous enough to get your experience in the headlines before an exec lets you back in.
  - pheeney 8y ago
    Exactly. I am an amazon affiliate and use other amazon services as my business. The bridge has been burned for me as a consumer to continue shopping with them personally or with my business, but it's too risky to upset the beast if that somehow triggers an impact to my livelihood on the other end. I would love nothing more than to phase Amazon out of my life along with Google but that is increasingly difficult to do. How many processes are in place at Amazon to fight chargebacks? How do we know it won't trigger anything? How do I know they won't retroactively make a decision months or years later? Thats the risk I can't take.
    - ryandrake 8y ago
      I didn't consider the case where you're not just a consumer. Will they kill your (presumably totally separate and isolated) business account due to a charge-back on your consumer account? How do they even know it's the same person? Even if so, I'd argue if your business is so utterly dependent on a single company's service, that's a huge risk and you ought to be be taking steps to diversify or self-host some things. We've all read those "Company X changed algorithm Y and my business is over!" stories. As a pure consumer, I stand by my statement: If you're going to charge back a credit card transaction, you're past the point of ever wanting to do business with them again, so shouldn't care what they do to your account.
      - pheeney 8y ago
        I don't know what Amazon will do now or at any point in the future if I were to do a charge-back or any else they don't agree with. I imagine they could easily link my accounts together. Payee names, IPs, logging out of one account into the next in the same session. Any other meta data like phone, search history, etc. It sounds like a reach right now but the fact is there is no way to know what they do and its the unknown that causes a problem. I am well aware of the need to diversify. It is something I am actively working towards but there is no path from here to there overnight. I still partly agree with your consumer stand point. Even if you rule out the business aspect Amazon is pretty entrenched in may ways from purely a consumer standpoint. If I personally don't care what happens to my account, what about my family? Will their kindles stop working, prime video, audible, whole foods, etc? They share some of the prime benefits so they would be affected as well.

ryandrake 8y ago

Why worry about being banned? Why would you want to continue to do business with a company that treats you like this? When I get to the point where I am contemplating a CC chargeback, the bridge is already burned.

neetdeth 8y ago
Because Amazon is no longer a simple bookseller. It's a diversified mega-corporation that is big enough that the average individual will want to think twice before getting on its bad side. What if you want to host something on AWS? Stream on Twitch? Shop at an Amazon Go? Keep listening to your Audible library? What if you're using home automation equipment that's tethered to a cloud service and Amazon acquires the company? Sure, a simple chargeback probably won't trigger broad spectrum retaliation though all their subsidiaries, but the fact is that Amazon has accrued a lot of power in recent years.
- tyingq 8y ago
  Other megacorps like Google have already demonstrated that ability to cancel all your services for violating terms on just one.
  - pheeney 8y ago
    And to top it off theres no support channel or humans in the process to "appeal" their decision. The only luck you have is being semi-famous enough to get your experience in the headlines before an exec lets you back in.
- pheeney 8y ago
  Exactly. I am an amazon affiliate and use other amazon services as my business. The bridge has been burned for me as a consumer to continue shopping with them personally or with my business, but it's too risky to upset the beast if that somehow triggers an impact to my livelihood on the other end. I would love nothing more than to phase Amazon out of my life along with Google but that is increasingly difficult to do. How many processes are in place at Amazon to fight chargebacks? How do we know it won't trigger anything? How do I know they won't retroactively make a decision months or years later? Thats the risk I can't take.
  - ryandrake 8y ago
    I didn't consider the case where you're not just a consumer. Will they kill your (presumably totally separate and isolated) business account due to a charge-back on your consumer account? How do they even know it's the same person? Even if so, I'd argue if your business is so utterly dependent on a single company's service, that's a huge risk and you ought to be be taking steps to diversify or self-host some things. We've all read those "Company X changed algorithm Y and my business is over!" stories. As a pure consumer, I stand by my statement: If you're going to charge back a credit card transaction, you're past the point of ever wanting to do business with them again, so shouldn't care what they do to your account.
    - pheeney 8y ago
      I don't know what Amazon will do now or at any point in the future if I were to do a charge-back or any else they don't agree with. I imagine they could easily link my accounts together. Payee names, IPs, logging out of one account into the next in the same session. Any other meta data like phone, search history, etc. It sounds like a reach right now but the fact is there is no way to know what they do and its the unknown that causes a problem. I am well aware of the need to diversify. It is something I am actively working towards but there is no path from here to there overnight. I still partly agree with your consumer stand point. Even if you rule out the business aspect Amazon is pretty entrenched in may ways from purely a consumer standpoint. If I personally don't care what happens to my account, what about my family? Will their kindles stop working, prime video, audible, whole foods, etc? They share some of the prime benefits so they would be affected as well.